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The State of Turf (Party) Wars today...

Discussion in 'Turf Wars' started by realmraka, Mar 27, 2019.

  1. Hey everyone,

    I'm atkns, a long time turf player and I've been playing the game since mid-2015. I consider myself experienced when it comes to anything Turf Wars, in fact, I'm part of a league called TWL (Turf Wars League), where we hold competitive matches with teams in a season-esque setup (very fun by the way).

    Besides that however, I wanted bring up the issue of public Turf Wars today, and that is the change in the very nature of this community. As I've said, I have been playing turf for a while, and know for a fact this is one of the most competitive games on the server, people take their bow skills very seriously: I myself took it seriously back when I first started. The entire game has revolved around competitive matches and I think we can all agree the most fun matches happen with teams of equal skill. And in my opinion, it has been like that for a while, players strive to become better at the game and many rivalries and friendships have started because of that.

    This is where I come to the issue. With the introduction of the Turf Wars leaderboards, (and all game leaderboards in fact), the goal has shifted from the individual becoming better, to just grinding wins to get on the daily leaderboard. While that's fine, I draw the line at the parties of 5 or 6 experienced players who join lobbies and just take over, depriving the individual players who are trying to get better of a chance to even play. These players are not only depriving everyone of the competitive nature of the game, it just completely takes away the fun in games when the other team ends up winning so easily just due to these bands of experienced players grinding for wins which takes away the individual aspect of Turf Wars. I've talked to so many people about this, and many others simply can't have fun in games when we're paired with some inexperienced players and a giant grinding party joins and just takes over the whole game, it just isn't fun anymore. People just end up rage quitting when they're being auto-targetted as soon as they leave spawn and just that fact means something has gone wrong. The very thing that made Turf Wars fun before was the intensity of the matches, and how much of an impact each player had on the game. When players aren't able to feel that intensity with the one-sided matches, something's gone wrong.

    Now you may be asking, does this guy want to get rid of leaderboards? The answer is no, I don't want to get rid of the leaderboard system and I think the system is one of the best ideas Mineplex has had in a while. The competitive nature of this makes players strive to become better, and fits exactly with the theme of Turf as I mentioned before. The root of this problem, in my opinion, lies with the party system.

    The general thing is that the party system in two-sided games like Turf Wars or Bomb Lobbers makes it so giant "grinding" parties take over the game, and really detract from any sort of balance and competitiveness in a match. The solution I came up with, is to have a cap for how many party members can be on a team at once. For example, if I had a party of 5 or 6 people, the lobby would split the party so at the max 3 party members would be on red or blue at once not all 6 party members on one team. In Turf Wars and Bomb Lobbers, an experienced party of more than five or six players fully detracts from the competitive aspect of the game. If large parties were split so about half of them were on either team, I could see this being a good solution to the current problem. Additionally, due to the randomized aspect of team creation, players would have to rely more on themselves rather than parties to carry themselves to wins. The leaderboard today has become a question of who can have the best, most skilled party and get the most wins. When really, the leaderboard should be something that causes players to try and improve how they play and their overall skill.

    Let me know what you guys think, this is just my opinion and I'm open to hearing feedback on the state of Turf Wars today. I've just become so frustrated because the game I've been playing for almost 4 years has turned into a grind game instead of something that requires individual skill. If you have additional suggestions or maybe a different fix to the problem I have addressed I'm open to hearing anything constructive.
    Posted Mar 27, 2019
    Gods and whatsup34 like this.
  2. I get what your saying, I'm on bedrock and right now that kind of teaming isn't an issue yet.
    But I don't think doing that will matter, most of these teams are on Xbox live or discord talking to each other, so even if the teaming limit was in place then you can easily avoid that by not having a couple in the party and they can join the team seperatly. I take my bow skills seriously and very good at it, but I still wouldn't limit the team party.
    -1 for me.
    Posted Mar 27, 2019
  3. Hey ImFirewalker,

    I was referring more to the Java experience of playing Turf Wars, I haven't really tried Bedrock yet, but it's good that the party issue hasn't caught on there !
    OP OP
    OP OP Posted Mar 27, 2019
  4. I know you are Java and I was level 88 when I stopped playing Java and played plenty of turf wars, and still don't think that needs to be changed with parties going in, maybe it's way more different than when I played Java.
    Party on bedrock is kinda broken which is why it's not an issue, but even if it was working I don't think it would be an issue, I with the team have made a team of 4 leave the games to a different one, and they were good, but if your better then a team isn't to much to deal with.
    Posted Mar 27, 2019
  5. The pros and cons of a leaderboard for casual games cancel each other out. It really just depends on your overall personality on Mineplex. It will encourage those who really care to be more active but the casual players may just stop because competition is too high. Me, since I am competitive for important things and hobbies, do not get bothered about these things. There will always have a competitive and a leisure side to things. Like other servers, I think Mineplex should create ranked and unranked matches for casual games where tryhards are most disliked. Unranked matches are more house league while ranked ones are competitive. This should make both parties happy. There also needs to be a certain rank (and above) that restricts you from playing unranked matches.

    Report a User | Report a Bug | Apply For Java Trainee | Rules| My Profile
    Posted Mar 28, 2019
  6. Hey atkns,

    As another long time turf member, it's kinda disheartening to see the lack of competition in Turf Wars's current state. The parties usually pick maps like sinkhole or frost forts, which are maps notorious for easy spawntrapping, and when these parties just shoot into the small spawn doors, the games go very, very quick. With the current party system, this enables parties to crank out wins very, very quickly at the expense of ruining the experience for everybody on the other team because there is nowhere they can go except to their next respawn. The recent add of spawn protection is a great idea, but with the current system it just delays their death by a second or second and a half or whatever the duration is. The one-sidedness of the games that I have seen can really only be compared to Lebron James dunking on a group of paraplegic kindergartners. These poor new players just spawn and die, over and over and over until they can't take anymore and leave. Some players like myself form our own parties and try to play against these pubstomping parties in an attempt for a competitive game. This also allows for the new players to not be relentlessly spawntrapped and gives them a chance to play a bit.

    The issue that I have is that these parties just wont play games that they aren't certain that they can just spawntrap for easy wins. When I form or join a party to combat these pubstomping parties, they just leave when we join, since all they care about is the winning aspect of it and not a fun, competitive match. I also participate in the Turf Wars League and I sort of find it ironic that the players who grind these wins are incredibly unsuccessful in the Turf Wars League and its tournaments. Nobody on either team in the Turf Wars League finals were constantly in pubstomping parties, and nobody in the finals of the White Rose tournament were big pubstompers either. Your point about how the leaderboard *should* function (inspire players to improve their skill so they can be up there too) is one I agree with, but there are a few pubstompers up there on the total leaderboard who can't seem to compete skillwise when there true skill is not masked behind the numerical advantage of a party, so I would say that the leaderboard is not fulfilling that goal.

    My solution would just be to completely randomize teams. There will always be landslide wins because there is obviously no ELO system where a matchmaker can match teams up completely fairly, but I would rather play in some competitive games than no competitive games.
    Posted Mar 28, 2019
  7. Hey,
    I understand all your frustration with this and I can see why you feel there is a lack of a "competitive" feel with large parties, but I'd rather not force friends to separate. I've never really been a huge fan with how the current party system works in public games where "tryhard" parties are able to completely dominate a lobby, but then again I don't think we should necessarily force friends to play on separate teams. The gamemode is intended to be casual, and I feel like if you've got a group of friends playing with you, you should at the very least have the option to be able to play with them then.

    I don't play too much Turf Wars, but I can understand where you're coming from with the leaderboards and parties. From what I believe, the leaderboards were really just added as a small addition to add a little competitive feel towards the games, and they weren't meant to completely trump the casual feel. It seems that the leaderboards have added some unintentional effects which has made the game less enjoyable for casual players.

    Ideally, it'd be nice if we could have a separate competitive and casual gamemode, but I feel like as of right now dividing the playerbase even more is the last thing we want to do right now. Unfortunately I don't really have have a ready solution for this problem. I suppose adding a cap to parties could be a potential option, but again say if you're playing with a party of 4, I don't think it'd be that great to put 3 of them onto one team and then forcibly place one member of the party all alone on the other.
    Posted Mar 28, 2019
    Johnny Welamton likes this.
  8. Before I say what I want to say, I just want to point out that I completely understand where you're coming from, and I understand that this is a very large issue that sort of leads to frustration and casual players quitting.

    So after reading your idea and post, I wanted to share a few opinions on why I think this is not the direction Mineplex can head for at this point. This isn't a "Turf Wars" issue, it's an issue that lies in every single team game on Mineplex. This cannot be classified as something that ruins the fun in casual play for Turf Wars, but instead for the entire network in general. Now that I've pointed that out, let me get to why your solution will not work.

    I agree that parties dominate in Turf Wars, but they also dominate in Cake Wars, Champions, SG and SW Duos, and any other team game, just name it. But that's what parties are for. You cannot split parties just because group(s) of good players are getting together to try and dominate the leaderboards. There are also those players who just want to have a fun time with their friends and play together. I like the idea of the individual a few replies above stating that Mineplex needs some sort of system which players can play in parties with an ELO based system, or they can play solo in a casual system. While this idea would obviously fix the issue of parties grinding against casual players, it's just too late to do this. Due to some terrible decisions by the higher-ups of the Mineplex staff team, Mineplex has lost its player count by a tremendous amount. Almost all of the casual players are gone (It does seem like there are far many more casual players than competitive players, but think about it. Most of the "OG" old competitive players are still around, while the casuals are basically being recycled"). Mineplex just doesn't have a big enough player base to support even more lobbies and game modes which players have the option of playing in. Lobbies take long enough to fill even now with the mix of casual and competitive players, just imagine how long it would take if there was a lobby just for parties and just got solo players. Now for atkns idea of splitting up parties: This would just make even more players quit Mineplex. And this time, it'd make the long-time players who love Mineplex just because it's fun to play competitively with friends quit. Mineplex is in the middle of a lose-lose situation here. They can either let this party "grinding" continue and let more casual players quit, or they could stop this grinding and let the actual competitive community quit. Now this decision would obviously lean towards letting the casual players quit.

    Hope that made sense have a good day :gwen:
    Posted Mar 28, 2019
    _Prof_ likes this.
  9. Hey Chiss,

    I agree that this is a server-wide thing and not just Turf Wars. However, the domination is not quite as prevalent in games such as team sg/sw and those sorts of games because of their more FFA-esque gameplay. A solid team in survival games could mop up a few teams but then get cleaned up by another team while they are low health.I admit that this is a pretty specific scenario, but it certainly happens. Pure speculation, but I doubt players that play competitively with friends would just quit the game if their friends weren't always on their team. I would hope that these players play because they enjoy the game.
    Posted Mar 28, 2019
    chocochunk and realmraka like this.
  10. The party issue is an actual problem, it creates lots of toxicity in within the community, it drives new players away, and it kills the players skill levels, and people are just getting 100s of wins a month in an unfair way. This party issue is a disease for the Turf community and it's killing it very quickly, I really want something to be done. Turf has and always will be my favorite game and to be honest I've lost interest in all other games. I've played for years, and I haven't seen something split the Turf Wars community like this. Players are quitting and some are becoming very very toxic. It's genuinely disheartening, to see the community I love split like this.

    There's been many ideas to fix this, and party cap is one of them, but I feel like it is the inferior one. I disagree with having a party cap, a better way would to make Arcade itself have randomized parties. This benefits a few games, such as Bomb Lobbers, Paint Ball and of course Turf Wars. I can see all of these games having this issue. There are of course a few other games that this doesn't work well with, which is Sheep Quest and Micro Battles, but the communities for Turf Wars and Paint Ball are so much bigger than SQ and MB.

    The main argument against this idea is that "It defeats the purpose of parties, which is to play together". Something along the lines of that is the main argument, and I think this is solved very easily. There is a forgotten feature that is in every game, and it's called queuing. I feel like if you really want to play with your friends you could use this. Queuing has always existed, and this party issue isn't actually new to the community, it's just a lot more common and a lot more easier to do. Also, some players want to be in a party together and talk, but they don't have fun because the game isn't challenging when all the good players are in your party.

    This current party system doesn't work well for the popular Arcade games. I do feel like party randomization is the best way to go at it, and if players want to be on the same team, they have the queuing system. It does more harm than good to keep it the way it is now, and many people just abuse the system for their stats. If you've noticed there are 6 and almost 7 players with 10k+ wins in Turf Wars now, while only 2-3 months ago there was 3 people. This whole situation is very upsetting for many players and I hope that Mineplex can find a solution to this issue.

    -NubLyfe, and/or ChickenKiddo
    Posted Mar 28, 2019
    Hurtfull, chocochunk and realmraka like this.
  11. Hey Gkinz,

    I fully think there is a competitive feel. The only problem here is it's the wrong type of competitive, and the competitive feel that destroys a community of players. The current problem is much more serious than people realize, as parties grinding for wins restricts growth as well as diminishes the already existing player base. I've heard from multiple people that they're quitting the game just because of these parties and how the very nature of Turf Wars has changed. I've been here for 4 years and I haven't seen anything more destructive to the turf community than these parties that solely exist for grinding out wins.

    Additionally, splitting players up in an arcade game isn't as big of a deal as it seems. Parties will still exist, making it random still allows friends to play with each other, just not necessarily on the same team. We had a system in place (I think a year ago now?), where you could see your team before the match started and to queue for a different team you'd have to manually switch with someone else who wanted to switch as well. If we went back to that system and made it so arcade games in general are randomized as NubLyfe said, we can truly bring back the casual and skill-based competitiveness that we all know and love. The truth of the matter is that we cannot let parties like these take over Turf Wars and for that matter any arcade game with the player count diminished as it is.

    Hopefully that makes sense.
    OP OP
    OP OP Posted Mar 28, 2019
    _Prof_ likes this.
  12. My personal belief is that the party system is what stands in the way of a real competitive leaderboard in Turf Wars. As mentioned above, there is a big difference between the leaderboard's top 10 and the players that are playing the game in a league. The biggest factor for this is the end goal, the point players are striving for. The past months has made it clear that the majority of the topspot hunters on the leaderboard have lost all interest in the competitive and skillbased side of turf. It has become a stomping ground where the goal is no longer to be the best, but to win in the least amount of time possible.

    As HogGod said it, these pubstompers keep finding new ways of exploiting the the system, through parties, specific maps, spawncamping and more. It doesnt seem to have an end in sight and it has made the game unbearable to most. Considering turf is a game that has its roots on players that decided to climb the ranks through hardship, i can undoubtedly tell you that if i were to play in this kind of turf back when i started i would not have played the game like today, i would have quit

    So for my suggestion. Currently i see only a single way of resolving this. Leaderboard games should have certain parameters that must be met to be eligible to gain wins. This could be a party cap, where parties cant be bigger than a certain size. This kind of satisfies both sides as in parties don't have to disband but teams do not become too unbalanced either

    Even then, the current state of turf is so chaotic that even this probably isn't enough to fix it. Turf will without a doubt die out if this continues, there will be no new influx but the outflow will remain somewhat consistent
    Posted Mar 28, 2019
    realmraka likes this.
  13. My solution would be introducing games based on your stats in the game, Kill Death Ratio for example. Where if a KDR of 4 were to queue they would be placed with generally the players with the same KDR. Again it could be win-loss ratio too, or some other stat but there's also a problem; those stats may not reflect a player's actual skill level. And also - I don't see too many players playing turf anymore (maybe because of this issue) but that could lead to repetitive matches with the same people over and over again.
    I also think it wouldn't be viable in general as it (to my recollection) would be the first time in Mineplex's history that this sort of 'ranked play' system would have been implemented.
    Overall I don't think there will ever be an easy fix to this problem though I think there should be something changed none-the-less.
    Posted Mar 30, 2019
  14. Hey!
    The parties aren't really a problem. If they are experienced they are experienced, no need to draw a line to 5 and 6. If you think they are tough, then simply just try to improve your skills. If you are as an experienced player as you described yourself to be, then this shouldn't even be a problem.
    Posted Mar 30, 2019
    infinite_bananas likes this.
  15. 1v6ing or 2v6ing in turf is an extremely unlikely feat to pull off in a game as volatile as turf wars, even for the best players around. The other issue is that if you bring in your own party to combat the issue (so each team has an equal amount of experienced players) the opposing party will just leave and find another lobby full of new players to beat down. As I stated in one of my earlier posts, these parties that are causing the issue are not very successful in the Turf Wars League at all where there is no party advantage for anybody and its just whichever team is most skilled, so I don't think the solution is "lol just git gud".
    Posted Mar 30, 2019
  16. Getting rid of the map voting would probably help the issue somewhat. It's harder to steamroll on some maps. I don't think we can split parties, but it would be nice if we had some sort of stat matchmaking.
    Posted Mar 30, 2019
  17. Hey,

    So the thing with that solution is the state of Mineplex's player base at the moment. During the day, Mineplex peaks at 2.1k usually, and even then it wouldn't be efficient if the players were split up into separate lobbies by skill because there just aren't enough people playing Turf Wars for this to be effective. The fact that Mineplex's population has shrunken to this point means that drastic changes must be made to preserve the influx of new players. Right now we are losing new players to these parties as they simply end up ragequitting the lobbies. I urge you to go into a public Turf Wars lobby right now and observe how many parties you see. As HogGod said bringing in your own party just causes the grinding party to leave to find easier lobbies. The fact that Turf has come to the state of just grinding for wins is killing off the new players who are just starting out. These new players are the future of Mineplex and we cannot just ignore them if Turf Wars is to stay active.

    Thanks for reading.
    --- Post updated ---
    Hey DuvL,

    The parties are a problem, please go into a public turf lobby if you want to experience it. As for my skill level I assure you, as HogGod said the skill level does not matter when 5 or 6 of these party members are mediocre turf players and are targeting me because I'm the only "threat" on my team. The skill level is not relevant in this scenario and it will stay a problem even for the best turf player on Mineplex. Either way, arcade games should be randomized, as NubLyfe said. Parties in Arcade Games are almost always for grinding wins which should not be supported. Arcade games are meant to be casual and random, not the repetitive one sided games that have been going on since the leaderboard updates.

    Thank you.
    OP OP
    OP OP Posted Mar 30, 2019
  18. Ever heard of team game? Just dont 1v6 and go with your team. The whole point of a team game is to stick with your team.
    Posted Mar 31, 2019
  19. I did address that in my original post, but yes I do agree that Mineplex's dwindling player base would not be able to be split up like that.
    Though you also bring up the point that the grinding parties turn new players out of Turfwars, do you think that my "solution" would turn away more players or less? My reason for asking this is because the ranked play I suggested may turn the older players away from Turfwars but also bring in new players, would one counter-act the other? I do not know but as it is now; like you said there isn't even in income of new players who stick around.
    Posted Mar 31, 2019
  20. We have heard of team game, the issue is skill levels. If a party of experienced turf players arrives in a lobby, most of the time I'm on a team with players who simply aren't skilled. It becomes a 1v6 as they will literally target me as I'm the only threat on my team. If I bring other experienced players to the lobby to combat this the grinding party just leaves. I'm sorry but unless you actually play the game you simply will not understand how us players feel. For that I ask you to please go to a public turf lobby and observe for yourself.

    Thank you.
    --- Post updated ---
    I completely think your solution would be the best way to combat the problem if this was a few years ago when Mineplex was at its prime of 40k players at a time. Now, splitting the turf players would just cause there to be too few players in each game to be functional. If it split players up by skill level it would not necessarily work when too few players are on. Theoretically however, I think that this would be a good solution. However, one that would work realistically would be randomizing arcade games, friends can still be in the same party, but arcade games should never become somewhere where people gang up on the less skilled players just for wins. It completely ruins the atmosphere for everyone.

    Thank you.
    OP OP
    OP OP Posted Mar 31, 2019

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