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The Circumstances of Encouraging Teaming in PvP Games

Discussion in 'Server Discussion' started by Ducksicle, Apr 8, 2021.

  1. Correct me if I'm wrong, but as of now, the only way for a person to be punished for teaming is if a) a modman is present or b) there is video evidence, reported on forums.
    I'm writing this because as of now, I don't think modmen can do anything except unofficially warn players if they encourage teaming in a pvp game. Keeping this short, I'm suggesting that if a player is encouraging others in the lobby to team on a specific person, they should be warned because their intentions are to break the rules even if they haven't done so yet. I've had many players specifically target me in chat and said "Everyone team on Ducksicle!" and never bothered to report it, but now that I think about it, players doing this behavior should be warned, and banned if they actually carry about teaming. This should definitely be reportable with the /report command because staff can just view chat history. There isn't always a modman online to watch, and a recording program isn't always available to every player on the server, but so many players still get away with this.
     
    Posted Apr 8, 2021
    StyxKiller03 likes this.
  2. For some reason the rules commitee thinks even blatantly admitting to teaming isnt sufficient evidence.
     
    Posted Apr 8, 2021
  3. A lot of the times people aren't teaming per se, but trying to eliminate the best player first (I'm sure this must be case with you, as you are a high level). This is a clear psychological response, I've done it before. That's what they mean by saying "everyone target X". It's annoying, I know.


    However, you can't punish teaming through chat for the same reason you can't punish hacking through chat. Actions speak louder than words, and words are often empty. What's to say that person is actually going to team? Maybe they're playing mind games. Who knows, it could lead to the high level player buying into the mind games and making them fragile. The main point here is, no, you can't punish someone through chat for a gameplay/hacking offense.
     
    Posted Apr 8, 2021
    Jocoe and Dulciloquy like this.
  4. EVERYONE TEAM ON DUCKSICLE
     
    Posted Apr 8, 2021
  5. 99% of the time someone recruits people to team on someone they usually follow through with it. If we make it punishable through at least mutes we can somewhat control the teaming that takes place since it allows people who cant run screen recorders to report them.
     
    Posted Apr 8, 2021
  6. exactly what @Complex_Calculus said above, except no I wouldn't think punishing through mutes is the right answer. What I was saying is that they should be warned for encouraging that behavior, and IF they follow through and actually team while a modman is there, or if they've been reported multiple times for the same reason, THEN they should get banned. It's chat related but with the consequence of banning rather than mute. I only think it's fair to warn them just in case they didn't know that teaming isn't allowed.

    Regarding what you were saying about the "psychological response," I'm guessing you haven't played SSM enough because everyone in the community knows that isn't the case. Almost every time someone encourages teaming, they follow through with it. It's not a strategy to eliminate the best player, it's blatant teaming, meaning two or three people refuse to fight one another and target a specific person. An acceptable strategy in a FFA game like SSM would be to target without also fighting other people who happen to be targeting the same individual, but this isn't what normally happens.

    With this logic, you can argue so many things with the current punishment system with chat-related punishments alone. This is like saying "How do you know the person really meant that they want the other person to kill themselves?" if someone said this in chat. Obviously this would be punishable, but you could never know if it was serious or not. Nevertheless, it shouldn't be commented on the server at all, and same thing with encouraging teaming.
     
    OP OP
    OP OP Posted Apr 8, 2021
  7. I don't really have much to add on that @gpsqueixo didn't already say. We don't punish for hacking or gameplay offenses based on chat, because they're not chat offenses. It is the players responsibility to know the rules. If someone is teaming against another player simply because someone suggested that in chat, the responsibility still falls on the person that decides to go through with the teaming, not on the person who spoke in chat. They could have been joking with their friends or talking about something else for all we know.

    This practice is already in place. A staff member could choose to issue a verbal or official warning before a ban for teaming, but they are also allowed to skip a warning. Under the Gameplay section of the public rules (mineplex.com/rules), "Staff will use judgement on whether or not you intended to break the rules. If it looks like you did not mean to/didn’t know about the rule then you will be issued a verbal and paper warning."

    You're suggesting that we issue a warning for something in chat, but then only issue a punishment if teaming is actually seen. Given the protocol above, this warning is not necessary. If teaming is seen, a staff member will either warn or ban the player, whether or not they said something about it in chat. You're not really suggesting anything new here, and the same amount of players would be punished for cross teaming as they were before.
     
    Posted Apr 8, 2021
    Jocoe and Paladise like this.
  8. Please read what I've already mentioned to @gpsqueixo . Literally so many chat offenses could technically be jokes between friends too yet are mutable because they are inappropriate. It should be the same with telling players to team. "It could've been a joke" certainly isn't an excuse not to deal with this behavior, especially because 99% of the time it's not a joke, at least in SSM.

    My point is that there isn't a modman watching every pvp game server 24/7. In addition, there's no guarantee that there's even a modman online, or in staff request at a given time. I understand this practice is in place, but if you want to further prevent people from teaming when staff isn't around, this is an easy solution. Because most of the time, people get away with teaming when no staff is online.
     
    OP OP
    OP OP Posted Apr 9, 2021
  9. You're absolutely right, our staff team is not big enough to have a mod in every server, and that's also not the purpose of the staff team. We have multiple ways to deal with rule breakers including StaffRequest and forums reporting. You didn't respond to my part of the message saying that warning for "conspiracy to team" or similar would not change anything, especially as you suggested we don't issue a ban until they are caught teaming. If they are caught teaming, we would already ban if they knew about the rule, and having a previous warning for "conspiracy to team" would not affect the decision of whether or not to ban a player.

    /reports are also not always handled before they expire. Reporting on the forums will remain the best way to get a rule breaker dealt with in a 100% reliable manner as long as your evidence is valid. You said there aren't always staff members online, which means there aren't always staff members clearing out /reports as well. So you may have a better chance of someone seeing a chatlog encouraging teaming, but it would just add a higher likelihood that it would be seen, it would still not be 100% reliable, and no manner of reporting is besides the forums.

    Your suggestion here is to add a warning for teaming based on chat, correct? But you agree we should only actually ban the player if they show teaming behavior, which is already punishable as I said above.
     
    Posted Apr 9, 2021
  10. I said that if a person is reported multiple times for encouraging this behavior, then they should still be banned, even if there is no one way to view what really happened in-game since a player's punishment history is available.
    The difference is that the reports for teaming that don't get accepted often do not have to do with chatlogs. Usually in this case, it would be video evidence of something someone might think could be considered "teaming" but is concluded as insufficient evidence. Chatlogs are different, because to encourage teaming should not be allowed at all, regardless of if the players follow through or not. Most of the time, they do follow through.

    Yes, this way you guarantee that the player will understand what is and isn't allowed in the game. And no, not necessarily. If the same player is first warned, and then reported again for encouraging teaming at a different time, they should still be banned because they knew what rules were in place.
     
    OP OP
    OP OP Posted Apr 9, 2021
  11. @Ducksicle I just want to clarify my point regarding chat punishments. It's all in the name. If you want to punish a gameplay offense (i.e.: teaming, exploiting, stat boosting), you cannot do it solely based off text evidence. It is, after all, core game mechanics that you're exploiting. Visual confirmation is inherent to the act of punishing these offense. You have to see the teaming/exploiting (stat boosting... well, that's another story. We'll save that for later).

    Chat offenses imply actions only tangentially related to the game. Take abusive behavior, for example; a Severity 2 chat offense. Calling someone a slew of inappropriate words and generally dampening their experience may affect the player on a personal level. The intent of the message is relayed clearly through text. No further visual evidence is needed -- the act has already been committed.

    As for "jokes" between friends, I would wager you're sensible enough to not play around with serious network rules. Staff can't guess if someone is your friend or not. It's something you can control yourself. Be mindful.

    I think @Dulciloquy framed the issue well in a staff perspective. A warning does seem counterintuitive as players can't be banned without visual evidence (apologies for the reiteration).
     
    Posted Apr 9, 2021,
    Last edited Apr 9, 2021
    WowCaleb likes this.
  12. Hey,

    Just one point I'd like to add on to what everyone else has said above. Your entire suggestion is centered around making an assumption. You have said that players are more likely to follow through with teaming if they're encouraged to do so in chat, but that doesn't mean they actually will. The policy that all staff members stick to when issuing a punishment is "If you're not 100% sure, do not take action". In the situations you've described (where staff would only be viewing the chatlog) then in no way can you ever be 100% sure, and that unfortunately means there's nothing you can do about it.

    I've always thought the rules should be relaxed in general. Not in relation to hacking or gameplay, but more so in chat based scenarios where staff should be more lenient. Now, you can only imagine how many people would be advocating for the same thing if players were to be punished for encouraging teaming. At that point, you can hardly do anything without a warning. Like Dulciloquy said above, it's on the player if they find themselves unable to resist temptation, not the person who encouraged them to do so. The player who listens to them is aware they're about to break a rule - if they go ahead and do it, they're the one who should face the consequences.

    The other inconsistency is where you're suggesting players are banned for continuing to encourage teaming in chat following a warning. Bans are only reserved for hacking and gameplay offenses - and how could this fall under gameplay? Not to state the obvious here, but gameplay is... gameplay. If you're punishing for something solely based off chat then it's a chat punishment, no question. You couldn't issue a ban as the situation doesn't fall under a category where bans are issued as punishment.
     
    Posted Apr 9, 2021
  13. I understand what you guys are saying, but if you truly knew how severe teaming is in specifically SSM, I think you'd have a better idea as to why further moderation of this is necessary. Teaming occurs more than you'll ever know, and my personal experience has been similar to the rest of the community's as well; the issue has gotten so out of hand that more experienced players like myself can even sense when people are about to team. At least for me, about 1/3 lobbies I join containing players I do not know personally end up teaming on me and getting away with it. Regardless of whether or not you can ban for chat offenses, I still believe that warning players who encourage this behavior is necessary, especially because newer players might not know that teaming isn't allowed in the game. This is something that is NOT already in place, as modmen only warn if they see someone encouraging or following through with teaming IN THE LOBBY. Reports through /report should be an acceptable way to tell staff that someone is trying to team.
     
    OP OP
    OP OP Posted Apr 9, 2021
    Complex_Calculus and Paladise like this.
  14. Also I think that if theres chat screenshots to go with video evidence of someone teaming that it should be taken account aswell since it further proves that they were trying to team if the video evidence isnt already enough.
     
    Posted Apr 9, 2021
    Ducksicle likes this.
  15. There's a big problem with taking out the "best player" and targeting them. If all other players do it alongside each other, they would be able to easily loophole teaming by simply saying "i was just going after the best player" even if they are clearly attacking that one player and nobody else.
     
    Posted Apr 9, 2021
    Ducksicle and Paladise like this.
  16. Most players already subconciously target the best player in the server at least in games like ssm. This is always going to be impossible to fix as long as FFA exists.
     
    Posted Apr 9, 2021
  17. You're right, it is definitely always going to be a part of ffa games but it still isn't fair nor should be allowed if done in a way that is clearly a form of teaming where more than one player simultaneously attacks one player and doesn't attack the other. in a 1v1v1 for example, you can't hit two people at the same time so obviously it would look like you are teaming at least for the first hits...that is inevitable. You can't continue doing that for fights as if the person you aren't attacking isn't there; at that point it should be punishable because it is not fair, simply as that
     
    Posted Apr 9, 2021
    Paladise likes this.
  18. The lowkey teaming as you refer to happens in 99% of public ssm games. Banning every person who does this would mean getting rid of basically everyone who plays the game. Thats the reason ffa is a bad gamemode.
     
    Posted Apr 9, 2021
  19. I actually made a post like this in the SSM section about a year ago. I think that encouraging others to teaming in chat does lead to actual teaming. In that case, you can just record a video or server report, but starting a recording is kind of inconvenient in the middle of a game and the in game report doesn't guarantee a fast enough response. And there's a lot of grey area with teaming, so your evidence might not even be accepted, but I think that if someone says in chat to team on a player, then it's obvious what they're trying to do. Even if they aren't able to get anyone to team up on you, then their intentions are still clear and should not be overlooked.

    Usually when I saw someone suggest teaming in chat, I would try to talk them out of it, which honestly only worked like 1/10 times. I don't think they should be punished harshly, nothing like a ban, since this should only be considered a chat offense. Perhaps a warning would suffice for the first few times, then mutes. Of course, they might ignore the warnings, but I feel like they will be less likely to actually team in the future if they see a warning and think that Mineplex is actually serious about enforcing rules. Besides, if they ignore the warnings, a mute will keep them from influencing others.

    If you think the mutes are too harsh, then consider this: the mute wouldn't even occur until they get too many warnings. Telling people to team on others is really immature and they shouldn't be saying it in the first place, whether it's against the rules or not. If they say this in every game where there's a better player than them, then clearly something has to be done to get them to stop.
     
    Posted Apr 11, 2021,
    Last edited Apr 11, 2021
  20. Or perhaps make the teaming punishment harsher if they get warned for it and then also team.
     
    Posted Apr 11, 2021
    mab8400 and Ducksicle like this.

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