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Speed Builders - Difficulty Curve And Hiding Perfects

Discussion in 'Bedrock Ideas' started by zapig, Apr 15, 2021.

?

Which Of These Would You Like To See?

  1. Both

    83.3%
  2. Difficulty System

    16.7%
  3. Hiding Perfects

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  4. None - Comment Why

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. [Long Post Imminent, tl;dr at the bottom]

    Hello Mineplex Community,

    I know I've talked about this before in various discord servers, but I never really got the chance to go in-depth on this combination idea, so here we go.

    Give Builds Difficulty Values:
    Currently, to my knowledge, builds are chosen completely at random, meaning the game could be entirely easy builds or start with one of the hardest ones. To combat this, I propose adding some type of difficulty ranking to each build. My idea for this is a 5 point system, 1 being the easiest and 5 being the hardest. This could probably be done as a data point system, since all the builds are stored at the map anyway. Here's how the proposition would work, the colors are just examples:
    Light Blue - 1
    Dark Blue - 2
    Lime Green - 3
    Magenta - 4
    Purple - 5
    This would call some type of difficulty attribute and initialize it to the value specified by the data points.

    With the difficulty being given, we would be able to incorporate that into the game's code, and I think I found a way that would work:

    0-5 minutes: normal randomization
    5-10 minutes: 1s no longer get chosen, 2s decrease probability
    10-15 minutes: 2s are eliminated, 3s decrease in probability
    15-20 minutes: 3s eliminated, 4s phase out
    20 minutes: Time Cap - No Winner Declared

    Hiding Perfect Builds:
    This is pretty much self-explanatory, so I'll make this quick: Basically, once it's recognized that a player has a perfect build, that player's platform should be hidden from view of other players, so as to prevent blatant copying/stalling.

    TL;DR, add a difficulty system that phases out the easier builds as time goes on, and hide perfect builds to prevent copying, thereby ending games quicker.

    Let me know what you think!

    Note: In order to avoid repeating myself, the suggestion of decreasing the time limit per build is not a viable option to me, as it provides a systematic disadvantage to mobile players, which I am not going for.
     
    Posted Apr 15, 2021,
    Last edited Apr 15, 2021
  2. Hey, I think this is really interesting, actually, for not only Bedrock but Java also.

    Build Difficulty
    Maybe not so many different difficulties as it would be difficult to rank them all, I'd only have about 3 that can easily be distinguished [Easy, Medium, Hard].

    That way it's also easier for players that tend to not be really great at the game to still actually climb and get a taste of every build. Because if there are 5 difficulties, it would honestly be the exact same pool of people reaching 4 and 5 and newer players would have little to no practice, leading to the same people winning every time as well as a big demand for a practice mode.

    I don't think this should work by minutes as well - I think it should just go by round to make things easier. Currently from my experience of playing the game, games tend to last about 8-15 rounds. SO imo it should be Easy at rounds 1-4, Medium at round 5-9, and Hard at 10 onwards.

    Oh yeah and I don't think there should be a cap at the game limit too. I think the games should just go on forever as they usually do - sure that might mean millions of rounds for people that are fantastic at the game, but eventually someone will give in, or you can just forfeit yourself. It's good practice, and with the time getting shorter each time, games do eventually end.

    Hiding Perfect Builds
    I'm meh on this idea, I don't think it's necessary. It's tactics in a sense and usually players waste more time looking at your build than managing to finish it. Plus sometimes mistakes simply aren't seen, depending on the build, so it's not a huge deal. I wouldn't touch it, personally.
     
    Posted Apr 15, 2021
    Coyly. and Skit like this.
  3. Heyo! I really think the first idea you had about the building tiers was actually really good.

    I would personally think it would be pretty cool to add this so that a player knows what to expect when looking at the build. I personally agree with what @maevestarbaby said, I would like to see how the builds increasingly get harder by the rounds and I personally think that sounds very interesting. I don't have too much to add on here other then I personally think this would be a really good addition and I see no problems with implementing this.

    Now as to the second Idea about hiding perfect builds, I honestly don't see a problem with this either but people can still look at your build regardless even when not knowing what to do which gives me the reason to think that this isn't really needed. If it were added, I personally wouldn't see much change in the game at all since if you're constantly getting perfects and the player is copying you, they're not going to be able to constantly copy you since the time gets less each progression.

    Overall, I don't think someone is going to constantly copy since it's kind of hard to do that, I wouldn't really do the 2nd idea, however, the 1st Idea I believe is pretty good and I'd be looking forward to that.
     
    Posted Apr 15, 2021,
    Last edited Apr 15, 2021
    Busjack5 likes this.
  4. Hey, I'm gonna go point by point on this:

    Build Difficulties:
    I started with 5 categories so as to add more leeway for categorization, as some are in between easy and medium, so that would just save people some headaches when categorizing the builds.

    With how the builds are thrown, I'm not suggesting to move through the difficulties as the game progresses. As stated in my main thread, the first 5 minutes are the normal randomization of the builds, then as time goes on, the probabilities shift towards favoring the harder builds, so that way it's more of a test of skill/burnout as opposed to just getting lucky. That being said, having the difficulties go by round seemed a bit off at first, but I do get where you were coming from and I should have been clear that all 5 difficulties are fair game when the game starts.

    Time Cap:
    This cap already exists, I would not be adding a separate cap on top of this, as the rounds don't decrease in time on Bedrock, nor should they, so as to avoid systematic removal of mobile players late-game.

    Hiding Builds:
    I get what you're saying with why you don't want to hide them, but I have had a bunch of 20 minute matches where the person next to me just copied the whole time.

    Thanks for your feedback.
     
    OP OP
    OP OP Posted Apr 15, 2021
    Coyly. and maevestarbaby like this.
  5. Yeah this is why I suggested less - when given so many options, it can be difficult to come to an agreement to which build is ever so slightly harder than the rest. Unless of course it was automated sorting, the more blocks to place = the harder it is, however that would be flawed. If it was only 1-2 Builders ultimately sorting out which builds go into which category then yeah 4-5 categories aren't too bad but if it's an entire team it can get messy. Plus, having a smaller amount of categories makes it also clearer and simpler for the game. They could be announced, eg. "Medium rounds starting now" rather than a strange process of "Semi-hard rounds starting now". If you're not thinking of it being announced at all and instead this just happening in the background then this argument doesn't apply but I still think the others do!

    I now realise I saw this and completely ignored it, my bad. I think it would be easier if they went by round(s), though, rather than having all difficulties randomised at the beginning. People can still get unlucky at the beginning of the game, which is what you suggested we should try to "combat", as this luck is "meaning the game could be entirely easy builds or start with one of the hardest ones"

    Oh yes, I was about to wonder about the cap, I remember now when I played Bedrock SB and you are right - 60s per build, right? Perhaps I was looking at the suggestion in a skewed way thinking solely of Java despite knowing this is a Bedrock thread. I think the idea is great for both servers but this time cap wouldn't really apply to Java. For Bedrock, however, I agree.

    Yeah as with the above point, I realise this could be a problem. But I think a cap would solve it, we wouldn't have to add anything on top of it. Perhaps when reaching the time cap, the person that gets the perfect build first will win.
     
    Posted Apr 15, 2021
    zapig likes this.
  6. Hey, sorry I originally skipped over this, but it seems you're thinking of Java, where the time does in fact decrease. However, this is not the case on bedrock, as I said to Maeve. This makes it significantly easier to consistently stay in the game through copying, and in some cases forcing the time cap. Hopefully I cleared that up, let me know if you have any other issues with this.
     
    OP OP
    OP OP Posted Apr 15, 2021
    Coyly. and maevestarbaby like this.

  7. Nope, I wasn't thinking of java, however I did get a little confused with the java features, but I've never had this issue, I guess I can see where you're coming from though however, sometimes you cant copy specific builds or at least its very difficult to do so which is why I still don't think that the 2nd idea still isn't needed.
     
    Posted Apr 15, 2021
    Busjack5, Jarif and zapig like this.
  8. Just briefly looking through all of this, I do seem to like the first idea of difficulty stages a lot. However for the second one, I’d rather decrease the time as the game progresses as well than hide perfect builds. While it does drag the game on longer, you still need some sort of skill in order to copy fast. Or, if you have the difficulty increasing over time, it would probably get harder to copy as well, which would make this feature sort of unnecessary. While I do think it’s a good idea at base, I don’t see the need for it if you’re increasing the difficulty already (and presumably taking the decrease in time from Java.)
     
    Posted Apr 15, 2021
    Busjack5 and Coyly. like this.
  9. I see why you think decreasing the time to build would fix the copying issue, and if everyone on bedrock worked in keyboard and mouse, I would agree with that; it just makes sense. However, this essentially puts in place a required cps, which, depending on how quickly the time limit decreases, gives a systematic disadvantage to mobile players such as myself. I'm trying to avoid that here, and I think I should have specified that in the main thread. Sorry about the confusion.
     
    OP OP
    OP OP Posted Apr 15, 2021
    Jarif likes this.
  10. Hey there, as you already know, I am 100% in favor of adjusting speed builders. Currently it is too easy for games to get to 20 minutes, and it just ruins the game. I know we have already discussed most of these issues to death in the GI discord, but might as well leave my thoughts here as well.

    I am mixed on this idea. While I totally get the concept of doing it this way, I think it is hard to put difficulty on builds with accuracy (besides the game most likely needed to be heavily redesigned). This is mainly because it could be calculated in 2 ways, at least that I can see. Either by a person or by taking time averages and/or amount of perfect builds, and assigning it based on that. The problem with having a person pick, is people are just better at different things. Like I struggle a lot on most organic builds, and it takes me multiple builds how to learn them perfectly, while most other builds I can do easily. Other players I have seen though are better at organics and worse at the builds I am good at. So depending on the person or people grading, it would be scued towards who is grading, and might put certain individuals at a disadvantage because of who graded builds. The second option might work, but again, I think it would take some time to code in and as we both know, there are plenty of builds that are broken, meaning most, if not all, players can't complete them. This would mean they are be default the hardest builds to complete. While the best option would be to just remove or fix them, I am still concerned about that and the time.

    With all that being said, I am not solely against this, but just am not super confident on how it could be successfully implemented.

    I 1000% agree. This has been something I have been asking for since I joined the SB community. It is way to easy for people to cheat off builds, and I have had to stop building in final rounds before, because players have just copied my builds for rounds on end. I have even lost rounds where players looked at my build, and then later I couldn't complete a build or had a glitched build and lost by default. So I am 1000% on board for this, and don't really see any problems with implementing something that would block builds.

    I get where you are coming from here, but I think SB, and all games really, are inherently favored for PC/Console. The problem is, we can only do so much on our side to balance games for different devices. I feel like a time decrease after 15 minutes have elapsed would be fair enough, as 60 seconds is a ton of time to do most builds on SB. Keep in mind, most of the builds on Bedrock are simpler than those on Java, which should help mobile players with the time. Plus, once it reaches 15 minutes, both players have proven their abilities, but the game has to end, and I have been in games that probably would take an hour to end without a time-cap. Again, I get your concerns, but once 15 minutes has elapsed, the game needs to have something that brings it to a close.

    Lastly, while this is a little less related, I do think an SB reward revamp is also in need. Rewards in SB need to be centered around rounds passed and perfect builds. This would seriously help with issues where games end at time-cap and players are given almost no reward for 20 minutes of, very good, play. I know it isn't 100% related, but figured I would throw it out there.

    Anyways, I totally agree with the need for updates, even though I don't fully agree with the build difficulties, I understand where you are coming from. I also completely agree that we need a system to hide perfect builds, as it can make the game drag on for too long if players spend the entire game copying off others builds.
     
    Posted Apr 15, 2021
    zapig likes this.
  11. Hey,

    What I was thinking is that for difficulties, I basically have enough knowledge of all the builds that I could basically give a "cheat sheet" of my rankings and whoever tests them would be essentially double-checking my work. In addition, during the testing phase, I should probably add 0, meaning it's too easy to add any real value to the game, and B, for bugged, which would probably need to be reworked after a Microsoft update. If you have any other ideas on how this could work, let me know.

    My disclaimer about the time drop was because I didn't want to sound like a broken record for the Java mains who have commented on this thread, but after 15 minutes, we would be in only hard builds anyway, so maybe a time drop could also work depending on how it's executed, but if it were to happen, I'd say no less than about 45 seconds.

    As for the SB reward revamp, we can talk about that a bit more and ultimately propose that idea for the GI discord to look at, since I don't exactly know if a forum thread would be the right route to go. Nonetheless, I wholeheartedly agree with that statement.

    Anyway, thanks for responding to this!
     
    OP OP
    OP OP Posted Apr 15, 2021
    thejoshxgames likes this.
  12. I mean, that would be better, but still seems like it would be skewed towards you and/or whoever were to review it. Hardness of a build is just such a subjective issues, that it is hard. I definitely think there are some builds that can be easily assigned (i.e. the like 3 block builds as easy or the jigsaw builds as hard), but besides that, I think it depends solely on the person. If anything, I think it would need to be similar to what maeve said, with only 3 levels of difficulty, because then it is just easier to group.

    Ah, I see. Well the main thing I wanted to get at is that since builds are already made easier on bedrock, that is really is the balancing for mobile players. Not saying that some builds still don't take long (why does the diamond block take so long to build?!), but generally they are much easier/faster. I don't think I have ever completed a build on java, but know I have hundreds, if not thousands, of perfect builds on java. Also, if the rounds did start easier, I know some people would still be eliminated, but I feel like it would make it easier for people to make it further, so a time penalty would help with that.

    I would also be fine with capping the minimum time at 45 seconds, as I have had plenty of games that the person got a perfect build in 61 seconds and that dragged the game along for another 5-10 minutes.

    Yeah, hopefully we can get a document going for SB eventually, because there are a ton of things we can do to make SB even better. Anyways, great thread, and hopefully we can get the ball rolling on some of these! :)
     
    Posted Apr 15, 2021
    zapig likes this.

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