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Reviving Cake Wars

Discussion in 'Cake Wars' started by Bobtroopo, Jul 17, 2020.

  1. Cake Wars is dying. Despite it being Mineplex's most popular gamemode, it has seen a sharp decline in players in the recent months. During peak times, a few months ago, it would see a consistent 400+ players, and now it has dropped to 300+ and sometimes 200+ on some days. Some might attribute this to a lack of updates, but Cake Wars has had one of the most recent updates. I believe the decline of players has been because of the increasing numbers of parties appearing. These parties have easily been able to win consecutive games (only losing their winstreaks because of hackers), preying on the other 12 players on the game that are clearly not on the same skill level. And even if they were, they could not fully rely on their teammates to win. The only way I have seen players not on parties win are due to getting on the same team as a hacker, or the party leaving because they are on a group of 3, and their 4th is on a different team.

    Let's see a typical example of how a Cake Wars game plays out:

    [​IMG]

    Who do you think is going to win?

    2 Minutes Later:

    [​IMG]

    Conclusion:

    • 4 Players had a very enjoyable 2 minutes.
    • 12 players didn't have a very enjoyable 2 minutes.
    Now for the 75% of games, those 12 players will play, they will have the same experience. Eventually these players will leave to other games, where they can't experience these boring games

    Now some of these players on these parties may say:
    1. One of the best ways to get better is by simply practicing and building up on vital skills like bridging or pvp. This is nearly impossible to do in a regular game due to a party immediately rushing your cake, not giving you a chance to bridge nor give you proper PVP practice. Now if they are suggesting for every newcomer to Cake Wars to practice on getting better either on MPS (Mineplex Player Server) or other Mineplex competitors, that would mean 75% of the players would be lost of the already diminishing playerbase.
    2. First, it is extremely difficult to join a party if you are a newcomer to Cake Wars. Most parties have set requirements like "Level 90+" or "500 wins", barring any other players from joining. Even if they sometimes don't say, obviously these parties won't accept any players that are new to Cake Wars or Mineplex in general. Second of all, this is expands the problem. Even if they manage to get on a party, this just switches another player to giving other players boring experiences.
    It is not fun to be in a game with a party on the other team. This is probably due to being immediately rushed before you can get endstone, practically getting 4 v 1ed, killed, with your cake eaten, and then running around for an additional 2 minutes before being shot into the void. The only way I see this being enjoyable is by rushing a party immediately and eating their cake, which I doubt many newcomers can do. Since the game becomes boring, newcomers leave to less competitive gamemodes. For example, Speed-builders is coming close behind Cake Wars in popularity. Probably due to the fact that parties can not ruin the game, and you have the chance to improve. In addition, if a game starts out with 13 players, the party of 4 will be put on a team, while the rest of the players have 3. Adding to the fact that they will most likely be more coordinated, perhaps in a discord call, they will also have another extra player compared to the rest of the teams that are not partied.

    With the above being said, I see 3 solutions to help revive Cake Wars:

    The first is implementing a Cake Wars Solos gamemode. This idea has been asked many times before, the main reason being that there is no parties in this gamemode, giving everybody an equal chance at winning and having a fun time. However, some players oppose this idea. Some reasons being:
    • "It will split the playercount". Now this will be true, but it won't split the playercount anymore than people already leaving to other gamemodes. Either way, Cake Wars duos and Standard will practically have the same player amounts. With that being said, I believe this should be implemented if Mineplex can reach a consistent 5k players, as to make sure it doesn't split the playercount too much. This might be happening soon, due to the number of upcoming updates, more of which can be read here.
    • "Cake Wars isn't mean to be a solos gamemode". Now it might be hard to play a Cake Wars game solo, with having to balance defense and offense, but on Mineplex competitor servers, it seems to be a popular gamemode. With having over a third of its standard gamemode's playerbase.
    The second is creating a more ranked queueing system. I have previously posted a thread which can be found here, but due to an enormous amount of confusion, I will be elaborating here. The basic idea here is that every player has a certain number of gems earned in Cake Wars, and that this number would be used for calculating how games should be placed together. The queueing system will be using the following rules:
    • Parties will always be kept together.
    • The total number of "points" on each team should be within 50k of each other.
    • The number of "points" calculated is the sum of the number of gems each person on a team has earned.
    Some points that the people on the opposition of this idea are:
    • "People can bypass this by using alternate accounts". I doubt many higher level players will utilize alternate accounts to bypass this system, due to them buying Eternal and Immortal on their mains. In fact, why don't they use alternate accounts now? Even if they use alternate accounts, soon those accounts will level up and soon they will be placed with players with similar skill levels.
    • "Many higher-level players will quit". This is already the case with most of the newcomers, which constitute probably about 75% of the Cake Wars playerbase. With time, almost all of these players will either a) leave to different gamemodes or b) join a party. I would rather see the top 5% of players quit than the bottom 80%. Even if they got bored with Cake Wars, they could always move to other gamemodes.
    The last point is linking the Cake Wars guide to the start menu. There is a guide for Cake Wars made by the Game Insights subteam on the forums, that is really detailed and helpful. The problem is, that I don't believe many newcomers have actually seen the guide. Linking it to the tips menu at the start of the game can be beneficial to people who want to learn some strategies on how to win.

    Hopefully if Cake Wars gets more balanced, this can be implemented in other gamemodes, where this sort of revision can be beneficial other players.
     
    Posted Jul 17, 2020,
    Last edited Aug 2, 2020
    Susie, Currensy_, Lofize and 7 others like this.
  2. Going to strongly disagree with both of these ideas - they won't grow the player base. On the contrary, implementing these changes will actually create longer and longer queue times, causing people to leave the game. I'm willing to agree that parties make it difficult to win games, and solo queueing should be an option, but you can't have three modes. I would support the removal of Duos and the implementation of Solos as a replacement. Not only does this make solo queueing viable, but because you can just reuse the Duos maps, only 8 players will be needed to start, as opposed to the 16 required in a Duos game.
     
    Posted Jul 17, 2020
    JAKE/// likes this.
  3. agree with the solo mode replacing duos, but I also think if they had ranked queuing done right it wouldn't slow down queue times. For example, if they made it so it searched for the closest to your rank rather than just other people in your rank, games would fill just the same but it would still put relatively similar skill levels together.
     
    Posted Jul 17, 2020
    Legend998 likes this.
  4. But this assumes that multiple highly ranked parties are queueing at the same time. If there aren't, the game just defaults to what it is now, with high skill parties being queued against lower skill parties. Additionally, people want to play against different parties with different playstyles, otherwise the game becomes dull. I wouldn't want to play the same three parties all day, that'd be boring.
     
    Posted Jul 17, 2020
  5. Having higher skilled people play each other when they are on and then having it match up like it is now when they aren't is still far better than what we have now. I think it's more boring and frankly not fun to get demolished every game for the 12 players than it is for the 4 to actually need to try.
     
    Posted Jul 17, 2020
    Legend998 and Bobtroopo like this.
  6. This is a bad suggestion considering the state of Mineplex. Mineplex simply can not support such complex matchmaking systems like this. Ranked matchmaking requires hundreds of players to work, 200 would simply not be sufficient. The top players would have to wait forever for a game.

    Also this thread comes out as a bit like you just faced a party and could not compete. Yes, the only way is to get good... I solo queued the first 1000 of my games, and not once did I complain about parties. I got good. It's Minecraft alright?

    "First, it is extremely difficult to join a party if you are a newcomer to Cake Wars. Most parties have set requirements like "Level 90+" or "500 wins", barring any other players from joining. Second of all, this is expands the problem. Even if they manage to get on a party, this just switches another player to giving other players boring experiences."

    I have never seen anyone set any kinds of requirements for their parties. Never.
     
    Posted Jul 17, 2020
    JAKE/// likes this.
  7. A lot of people seem to want CW Solo, so I think it should be added. It should replace Duos, but if the game starts to get a lot more players I would like to see Duos re-added.

    A ranked queuing system sounds interesting, I think it would work well if done right, as long as it won't tale too long. I think this could help newer player learn to play Cake Wars. I also like the idea of linking the CW guide in the CW menu, I think that would also help newer players get good at CW.

    There is something I should mention Cake Wars is not dying. The reason that it has seen a decline in players is that there was a period of time at the start of the Pandemic where all Minecraft servers saw a large boost in players, including Mineplex. This boost has mostly worn off at this point, which is why CW has less players. The reason why CW has seen largest decrease in players from this is that I think most of the temporary players went to CW, because it looked familiar. When the boost started to end, and those players left, CW to go back to a smaller amount of players.
     
    Posted Jul 17, 2020
    Legend998 and Bobtroopo like this.
  8. Couldn’t agree with this anymore. The parties always overrun my friends and I when we are just casually playing. I am always a big fan of supporting Cakewars solo, and many points you put in this thread are so true.
     
    Posted Jul 18, 2020
    Bobtroopo likes this.
  9. lol just get good or get in a party
     
    Posted Jul 19, 2020
    Emuky and GODKITER like this.
  10. Hello there!

    If you read my post thoroughly, you will realize that I have devoted a section to answering these two counter-points and why these ideas won't work in the long-term. For your first point, "lol just get good", I will quote my original post:
    I don't know whether you feel it's detailed enough or not, so I will adding some additional points. Originally when Cake Wars was released, parties of high-level players weren't a big deal because everyone was getting accustomed and getting better at playing. Now with players starting to join Mineplex, you have a couple years head start on learning everything from strategies and simply how to play the game. Now it is impossible for newcomers to learn anything if they are going to get immediately rushed by a party of very skillful players. The only way people can get better are by playing with players that are in a similar-skill group, not too easy for them to beat nor too hard for them to beat. In the current atmosphere, "getting good" is not feasible.

    Responding to your second comment "get in a party", I will quote what I also said.
    I will now elaborate on my earlier points, in case you didn't understand the first-time around. High-level players often announce in Lobby-1 that they have "cw 2/4" and that they are looking for players. You, being a high-level player with a decent amount of Cake War wins could easily be accepted into a party. Now for a level 10 player that probably has 10 wins, this isn't possible. They might say "invite me", but it's doubtful that the high-level player will and will instead ignore that player looking for someone that will make winning easier for them. Sometimes, they even straight-out say requirements that they are looking for which makes it even harder for newcomers to join. I also bring up the point that joining a party doesn't help the problem in the long-term, it just continues it. Now you have an additional player creating high-level parties that are basically pub-stomping on others, diminishing the playerbase.

    Now with those points in mind, I have also proposed 3 solutions that you can see in my original post. Hope this helps clarify!
     
    OP OP
    OP OP Posted Aug 2, 2020
    Legend998 likes this.
  11. To add on, even with skillful parties going against other skillful parties. One of the parties will usually leave right when the game start since they don't want to face an opponent who are skillful. Instead, they will re-queue until they find an easily lobby. I do agree with replacing duos with solos to suit players who want to play by themselves.
     
    Posted Aug 3, 2020
    Legend998 and Bobtroopo like this.
  12. But the parties that actually do dodge others are not skillful at all in the end.
     
    Posted Aug 3, 2020
  13. Good players and parties are not a problem. There will always be good players and it will always be unfair to newcomers... and no a 300 playerbase can not support a ranked matchmaking system due to the sheer lack of players... I am not ready to wait hours for a single cake wars game that ends in minutes
     
    Posted Aug 3, 2020
  14. I couldn't agree more with this thread. Solo cakewars (replacing duos) would probably bring more people to the game. Duos isn't even that popular to begin with so replacing it wouldn't really hurt the playercount.
     
    Posted Aug 3, 2020
    Legend998 and Bobtroopo like this.
  15. cakewars isnt in decline? lol its just relative to the total playercount on mineplex. in any case, i'm pretty sure a solos cakewars has already been talked about and im pretty sure its something that they're looking to do.
     
    Posted Aug 3, 2020
    Disgruntle likes this.
  16. The decline of players is due to the decline of players on mineplex ,and also i don't see them adding any new game like solo cake wars since they haven't even added back the most requested game ( which is of course Castle Siege )
     
    Posted Aug 3, 2020
  17. this Made me feel some remorse for the people I farmed 35 kills I farmed once. yeah, they are not having fun. once you are in a community, though, it's easy to get into parties. even me as a level 10 non was able to get into parties of lvl 60+ people fairly easily somehow. then It takes like a year to find a game without sweats
     
    Posted Aug 9, 2020 at 2:46 AM
  18. Hey, I've seen this suggestion popping up more and more now. Some of the reasons against the update which you tackled aren't that simple in my opinion. Cake Wars isn't dead still, and it's not dying. It's still one of the most popular games on the network, and every time I queue for CW, I don't have to wait for that long regardless of the time at which I queue. CW really isn't a gamemode that can be played solo, or at least games would be extremely long and boring. Also you said "I would rather see the top 5% of players quit than the bottom 80%". It's really not that simple. The top 5-10% of players probably have more games played than the bottom 50% at least, not to mention they make up the community. Ideally neither would quit, and most of the time I see newcomers again trying to improve at the game rather than just quitting. If you don't want to fight a tough lobby remember you have the option to find a new game without it affecting your stats until the game starts, which is what most people do currently. There are ways around it anyway, you can join communities targeted at partying with people for CW, such as CWLFP. Or just meet people in pub and start up a party. That's what I do most of the time, and it's more fun than playing solo anyway. Solo CW just wouldn't work because there's so much to do in CW that you really need a team for it, even CW duos is still a lot of work for both players on a team. Thanks for the idea and good luck with getting it processed, but personally I'm against it.
     
    Posted Aug 9, 2020 at 3:48 AM
  19. You make some valid points and I agree with most, I myself started playing mineplex not a long time ago and had to get my first 500 wins either alone or with other new players. After getting more into the community I improved and played with better players. After just hitting 3k wins the game isn't a challenge anymore. Every game is winnable in solo if not facing another party. Due to the fact that most parties leave when seeing another party Im often left with a boring 2 minute game seeing as there is no challenge and no real fun. The solutions you mentioned seem great on paper, how cool would it be for people to face a real challenge and face people their own skill level. However, this is not a realistic one. Mineplex' playerbase almost certainly doesn't have enough players to support such a system. With already long queue times adding another system that would slow this down I think many players would stop playing or switch to other gamemodes. I think something has to be done about the situation but these are not viable solutions unfortunately. As for a solo gamemode, I would like to see this but seeing mineplex' current state I wonder if it would be a smart long term decision.
     
    Posted Aug 9, 2020 at 1:01 PM
    Legend998 and Bobtroopo like this.
  20. I strongly agree with the solo cake wars. That sounds like a lot of fun for me. I usually used to play around 50 games of 4 player cake wars a week, now it’s about 5-10 games. Every game I join I see a party and they just win all the time. This is why I play other games instead. If we do see a solo cake wars, I would love to play it
     
    Posted Aug 9, 2020 at 1:26 PM
    Legend998 and Bobtroopo like this.

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