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Prevent Pub Stomping in Champions

Discussion in 'General Idea Discussion' started by Paladise, Sep 21, 2020.

  1. As Mineplex's overall player-count has began to drop, many players left Champions for other servers and gamemodes. The decreased amount of players has made pub stomping more prevalent in which players would encounter parties of highly skilled players every single game. Considering that most of these players in parties are leader-board players, it doesn't seem fair to have 5 of them going against a mix of somewhat skilled players and those who have just tried it for the first time. It is not a very fun experience as many times the new players leave within the first few minutes creating an even wider gap in a 4 v 5. While Game Insights has proposed changes for ability balancing and other issues like spawn killing, glitching, etc, it is clear that even with a Balance Update for Champions, pub stomping will continue to be an issue. Even if the Developers patch all the bugs and balance all the skills, and a new influx of players come to Champions, nothing will be done to counteract parties. I agree that parties are meant for friends to play together, but clearly skill balancing was not taken into consideration when the party system was implemented. I create this thread as a hub of ideas to help counteract the effect of pub stomping in Champions.

    Making Cross Teaming Bannable.

    This idea correlates to a part of pub stomping, where the parties exceed the team limit and so a couple of players are forced to go on the opposite team. Since they are friends with everyone of the opposite team, they usually throw the game, providing no contribution to their teammates, and creating a virtual 5 v 4 game. Needless to say this should be something that should be bannable since in almost every other gamemode, cross teaming is bannable. I go more in depth in this thread, so feel free to debate the semantics of what cross teaming is there.

    Create Win-streaks.

    @beanowonotanuwu :

    The basic framework of this idea revolves around the fact about appealing to players to solo queue for a game rather than form a party. This is carried out by win streaks that are only active if you are not in a party. Some rewards from gaining win-streaks can be possible amounts of extra gems, chests, cosmetics, shards, experience, etc. This focuses less on treading on players right to be able to play with friends and while it might not be that effective, I envision there won't be that much backlash. Along with this idea there obviously would have to be limitations to prevent accessing loopholes of the system like creating and disbanding parties and queueing through the sheep. To combat this system should remove the sheep queueing system and also only count wins if they were not in a party at the start of the game. More information can be found in this thread so feel free to leave feedback there.

    Join During Games.

    This system will allow players to join during games to help balance the teams. For example, if there is a 5 v 4 going on, then a person could join during the game and not have to spectate until it finishes. This will also help shorten queue times for games and provide an overall better experience for players. This system can also be applied to many other gamemodes so I highly suggest Mineplex takes this idea into further consideration. More information can be found here.

    Rework Team Distribution.

    @Naytin :

    The current system fails to account for player experience when determining team placement. Let’s take a lobby with 8 ExpP (Experienced players) and 2 NewP (New players). In a system based on random distribution, it is quite likely that the 2 NewP will be placed together on the same team, rather than being placed against each other. Not to discount their value, but that game is suddenly an effective 5v3. A significantly better way to distribute the teams is to split up the 2 NewP and the 8 ExpP evenly across both teams. Mineplex already tracks a player’s skill in the form of experience. This data can be used for determining skill levels because exp accounts for players’ skill in fights (kill/assists) as well as their ability to play the objective (capture points and collecting emeralds). To ensure that this system considers players’ skill on a running, fluid basis, the exp gained from each players’ last full game can be used when splitting people each round. Their experience is represented with a “score” when considered as an input in the code. The distribution system should then equalize the average score of each team to approximate even teams. Under this system, teams are split evenly with the 2 NewP likely being separated to avoid a 5v3 situation like we saw with current randomization. NOTE: This system will not break up parties. More information can be found here.

    Hopefully leadership can take into account at least one of these ideas to ensure every player who plays Champions has a fun time and is not on the receiving end of pub stomping.
     
    Posted Sep 21, 2020
    Susie likes this.
  2. Did you just delete this to repost it, or is my forums glitching?
     
    Posted Sep 21, 2020
    anthxny likes this.
  3. Strange, I think my forums are glitching too
     
    Posted Sep 21, 2020
    Anna-Marie likes this.
  4. I completely edited the thread removing some of the earlier proposals. I also gave it a fresh start so the earlier posts wouldn't confuse readers. Feel free to continue critiquing the ideas.
     
    OP OP
    OP OP Posted Sep 21, 2020
    Susie likes this.
  5. Joining not full games is fine and naytin's but will never happen.

    Pub stomping is a part of the game and players shouldn't be punished for wanting to play with their friends or wanting to have the highest chance of success.

    Cross-teaming shouldn't be bannable, and can barely be punished anyway.

    Still expecting random players to be completely reliable and trying to make it that way by punishing those who are.

    These ideas do not represent what the champions community want, just what Paladise and a select few want. So therefore its not what "every" player will see as fun.

    Champions is a quote "Hardcore" game so not everyone having fun is kind of inevitable. If tests were graded as participation and not based on questions we would have no one prepared for anything, because no one would care to learn. This sounds incredibly boring and not fun.

    These ideas will remove the remaining playerbase and kill the game ultimately because no one will find it fun and therefore not play if there are no players are all.

    Let me just copy paste this all into a text document before u delete this post too.
     
    Posted Sep 21, 2020
    anthony., nathan., 73GG and 3 others like this.
  6. [​IMG]
     
    Posted Sep 21, 2020
    anthxny and DietSugar like this.
  7. How are players being punished in my proposals above? If you are referring to cross teaming, this is already punishable in other gamemodes, and it clearly is an unfair advantage to have someone on your team throwing.

    Why shouldn't it be bannable? And I'm sure that the staff team can handle one additional rule.

    How are the proposals above punishing pub stompers?

    I have already discussed this a great deal in the Game Insights Discord. The general consensus is that the Join in game should be implemented, cross teaming to an extent should be bannable, Naytin's system should be implemented, and for the win streaks that hasn't been talked about yet. If you are saying the GI discord is not representative of the actual Champions playerbase that is another story entirely.

    I'm not saying players should have fun all the time, I'm saying that they should have it at least some of the time, more than what players are getting right now. It is fine for completely new players who aren't willing to adapt with these measures in place to leave the gamemode, as this is a hardcore gamemode. But right now, this system doesn't cater to them at all due to pub stomping creating an environment where learning the basic gameplay aspects of Champions is impossible.

    Why do these ideas make the game less fun?
     
    OP OP
    OP OP Posted Sep 21, 2020
    Susie likes this.
  8. people are being punished for cross teaming for a completely different reason then what you are referring too. They shouldn't be punished for doing literally nothing.

    Whoops must have been one of the other two threads that you deleted had that on it.

    There are like 5 people who respond to anything in game insights regarding champions, and the consensus in GI discord was it was a last resort option at best.

    Learning the basic elements of champions because they don't win is not how it works. I already explained how this could be fixed in one of the threads you deleted.

    Edited my post at the end read it.
     
    Posted Sep 21, 2020,
    Last edited Sep 21, 2020
    nathan., 73GG and Anna-Marie like this.
  9. You tried to defend breaking up parties in the last thread then after realizing how ridiculous that argument was you delete the thread and repost it now saying that parties wouldn’t be broken up. Nice.
     
    Posted Sep 21, 2020
    73GG and Anna-Marie like this.
  10. Again, I suggest reading that thread I linked to because it goes through thoroughly every counter argument you could possibly make. I'm not talking about players who afk in spawn then afk kicked, I'm talking about players who just sit in one spot for the entire game not killing players, not capturing points, intentionally throwing the game to make it a virtual 5 v 4. The difference between that and afking is intent, something which is key to this punishment. As for a person afking making it unfair, one of the proposed solutions above counteracts that, and you are free to also read the thread I linked there.

    Ok!

    If no one else responds, I'm assuming they are in silent agreement with the rest of the players who are actually speaking. Might I add, most of these players are GI members who work specifically on Champions and are knowledgeable about the gamemode, meaning their opinion should not be taken lightly. Virtually every player besides you is in agreement about it. Here are some responses:

    "You aren’t winning a 4v5 unless the stack of 5 throws hard or doesn’t care about capping Not to mention that even if you yourself are better dealing with the number disadvantage is not a simple feat where you can just slap a “get better” or “just outplay them” because even two bots can easily overpower a decent player. Back when I was on team misfits we scrimmed against a team that was worse than us in every aspect and we were railing them, but one of our players lagged out and suddenly we lost a 5k lead and lost that game. The disparity between your teams skill and theirs has to be very large to still be winnable. There really is no reason to not ban trucing since it messes up games you could have won otherwise and ruins it for others. Not to mention when the only lobbies available are 5 stack parties new players aren’t obligated to play in that type of environment and they arent going to BECAUSE its not a great environment, even if kits are balanced and such new players will not deal with it if they don’t have to since the easiest thing to do is just not play at all. And come on we all know how people always flock to the easiest option so why would we expect them to stick it out in a game that looks like its gonna die anyway. From a logical perspective choosing to do anything else makes about as much sense as getting locked in a furniture store and sleeping on the floor."


    "there is definitely a noticeable difference between a new player and a guy sitting with his friends on the enemy team as they spawn kill. And I do agree that balancing will for sure help the pubstomp problem, but im not sure its going to be enough (even with balanced kits, say flesh/seismic brute, people arnt going to have a fun time getting 3-5v1ed in their own spawn nonstop)."

    It isn't about not winning. It is about getting 2 v 1 ed or 3 v 1ed without learning how to use abilities. It is about getting spawn killed when trying to read the kit descriptions when making a kit. And it is about dying before even being able to go to a Capture Point.

    The only post you have edited is this one (the one I'm quoting), and you haven't stated anything about how the game becomes less fun.

    It became obvious to me that that proposed solution would never be taken into account as it was too radical. I'm assuming you agree with the rest of the proposals?
     
    OP OP
    OP OP Posted Sep 22, 2020
  11. I haven’t played champs much so I don’t know how cross teaming affects the game but I think it seems fair to make it bannable. Wouldn’t stop pub stomping though. If they were to add win streaks I don’t know why it’d only be in effect if you were solo, that wouldn’t make much sense at all. I don’t see why win streaks shouldn’t be added, but they should be available to everyone, solo or partied. I’m not sure how I feel about joining mid game, so I won’t comment on that. The only one of these solutions that would help is reworking team distribution but if parties aren’t separated, this would be ineffective as well. Needless to say, separating parties is far too radical
     
    Posted Sep 22, 2020
  12. Ok!

    The point of adding in win streaks is to encourage players to play solo. Instead of punishing, it is more of an incentive. Obviously, players can't pub stomp if they are solo queued, whereas it is entirely punishable to pub stomp in a party. If it were to be implemented for all players regardless of whether they are in a party or not, then there would be no point of adding it, as it would just ruin the gems, shards, and experiences' economy.

    Thanks for your feedback!
     
    OP OP
    OP OP Posted Sep 22, 2020
    Susie likes this.
  13. These proposals aren't limiting the pub stompers, (who for some reason enjoy shredding a lobby with no challenge) just making it better to play alone. While I do think that pub stomping should be stopped, it is a popular way to play. Making a different way (solo queuing) the norm without limiting those who want to pub stomp seems like a good way to push the community away from a harmful way of playing.
     
    Posted Sep 22, 2020
    Paladise likes this.
  14. Again making a point that you know has been countered before, I've given a solution to this, that Champions GI is much more likely to accept and actually push for implementation of, and that's making it so you can't go into the other teams base during the game.

    To assume that someone is in automatic agreement with you because they don't respond in the chats is extremely ignorant. Some people are unable to respond at the time that the discussion is going on and don't want to change the topic of a discussion happening at a later date, and some people don't have notifications on and only discuss when they're requested to join in the discussion. Please do not EVER assume that people automatically agree with you because they don't talk in the chats.

    Okay, so you're saying that you want people to be banned for cross teaming because they're sitting their AFK not trying to play the game? That's not what cross teaming is, it's more just them being annoying for their team. They're not in any way trying to team with the other team. Just because their intention is to cause their team to lose, doesn't mean they're teaming.

    Again I will also state, as you very well know by the fact that it's been denied multiple times and continues to be denied to this date, cross teaming will likely NEVER become punishable in games that only include two teams and the fact that you consider AFKing with intent as cross teaming proves why it shouldn't be.
     
    Posted Sep 22, 2020,
    Last edited Sep 22, 2020
    JAKE///, nathan., anthxny and 2 others like this.
  15. THIS! I was thinking the EXACT same thing! I just didn't know how to word it haha, so ty for saying that
     
    Posted Sep 22, 2020
    73GG likes this.
  16. Due to having received a "General Rudeness" infraction on my previous post, I was attempting to refrain from further engaging on this thread.

    However, I preach what @Heliology is saying.

    +100
     
    Posted Sep 22, 2020
    anthxny and Anna-Marie like this.
  17. That's how bob works he's like a clans player they know the rule book so they can get people in trouble and for no other good reason
     
    Posted Sep 23, 2020
    Anna-Marie and 73GG like this.
  18. I don't see, any issues with the ideas you have proposed here. I don't understand why @Toki and the other people on the Rules Committee are so content on keeping cross-teaming allowed, there is no reason it should be. It simply creates an annoying and overall un-enjoyable experience

    Win streaks seems like something that would benefit Champions. We have it on other games on the Network, so I don't see any reason it shouldn't be on Champions. I think there should be a win streak leader board, to make more people try to raise their win streak in Champions. My only question is how would this affect the joining in game system, would joining in game any winning still count as a win?

    I don't really have any other thoughts on your other ideas, but I think they are both excellent, and would really benefit Champions.

    One more thing I would like to say is please stop attacking Paladise. He had and idea, and he saw it wasn't very popular, so he reworked it. Like Paladise said, this is not attacking parties, or making it harder to play in them, and I see nothing hear that would realistically "kill" the current Champions player base. I get that Champions is supposed to be one of the harder games on Mineplex, but just because people want to make Champions more accessible to newcomers, doesn't mean he is trying to get rid of the old players. It doesn't have to be a choice between new and old players playing Champions.

    Also, it seems very immature to start insulting Paladise, simply because you disagree with him. I understand that not everybody has the same opinions as Paladise, but I think we can all agree that we can handle our differences in a mature manner, and not use petty insults whenever we disagree with someone.
     
    Posted Sep 23, 2020
    Paladise and MathFox like this.
  19. Once again a member of a group that is a very small portion of the champions community has reared its head to try and get me in trouble. In this case im talking about Young_Inventor, this group I refer to go out of their way to get people who oppose them in trouble. I did not insult Paladise you suggesting so is only a means to get myself in trouble. This is exactly why your group are disliked in the Champions community. If you'd like to explain how this is not the case please explain. I have made ways that cater to the entire community and not just to the new players like these ideas Paladise have. However Paladise decided to delete his previous versions of this thread. I do have a document containing my biggest response. Now if Paladise would like not to post his ideas here that were met with a lot of opposition in the GI discord in an effort to disregard what they say because they disagree with these ideas. That is honestly where this type of idea belongs. Unsurprisingly, it ended up here because people did not agree with him in the GI discord. The hypocrisy of your group having the best intentions for the game is evident in many places. For example, last week when you decided to tell Rammen to stop advertising his MPS in CTF1 despite this being an excellent way to bring people to the game or to learn more about the game. Your group bashes pub-stompers all the time for only wanting to win. Why was Rammen told to stop advertising for any other reason than it not being in a public game. It has 0 difference than a game in a public lobby except for it not effecting your stats, yet he was still told to stop. Another piece of your hypocrisy and intent of your group to only get people in trouble who oppose your opinions is wowOK getting warned for sending "Join CTF-1" 3 times in your community, which of course was reported (probably instantly) by Bob. You speak of immaturity, but what you do is petty something you accused me of being. I would like the staff you've attempted to lure here to recognize the slander I've been given here for speaking what I and others have observed as the truth. I'm not done yet, I would like to be respected while I play Champions and not treated as lesser because I play team games in a party with my friends. We do not do anything wrong, yet we are still treated with less respect for just playing a game. I could go on more with why your "immature and petty" comment is asinine, but I will probably be muted on the forums for speaking this truth.
     
    Posted Sep 23, 2020
    Arshaad_73, Anna-Marie and 73GG like this.
  20. “I would like to be respected” I respect you noob <3 :)
     
    Posted Sep 24, 2020
    Anna-Marie likes this.

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