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Modmen Lack Game Knowledge

Discussion in 'Server Discussion' started by Ducksicle, Jan 24, 2021.

  1. Hello, before I begin this discussion I just want to mention that I don't entirely know how trainees are trained on Mineplex, other than the fact that they are under the guidance of higher staff members. Since I'm also going to be talking about staff request, please don't comment something useless like "mODmEn aReN'T REqUiReD tO rEpLy oN sTaFf REqUeSt!!!!" because I'm well aware. This is more about how I think modmen should be more knowledgable before receiving their position on the server.

    It has come to my attention that many modmen do not know enough about the games available on the server. Not sure if each modman specializes in a certain area/game, however I think that all modmen should be required to know the basics of how every game is played. They should also have a better understanding of what different hacks look like. I do not want a modman that mains speed builders to falsely punish a pvp player. Not trying to call any staff members out, but here are some few recent examples of "lack of game knowledge" to help you better understand what my point is:

    1) I reported a player in SSM for flying via staff request. This player was playing the chicken kit, and the modmaam that was helping me /a me "Chickens are able to fly in SSM" while this player was gliding around the map, not flapping its wings and going very very fast. I told this modmaam to just watch his movement and that it was very obvious that he was fly hacking, and she needed to get a SECOND OPINION about this situation before taking action. It was eventually handled, but this is common knowledge that every modman should require before receiving their staff position.

    2) My friend got false banned today for "bhopping in SSM". He was playing SPIDER, a directional jump kit. It wouldn't bother me if this was a one time occurrence, but I've seen this exact thing happen multiple times in the past as well. Non-SSM modmen falsely punishing players for playing directional kits (spider and wolf) because it looks similar to bhop in other pvp games. I understand that we're all human and make mistakes, but this is COMMON KNOWLEDGE. If a modman is unsure about a player hacking or not, get a second opinion like in scenario 1. But really? Learn your hacks before you become a modman.

    3) A compilation of screenshots were taking asking the same question to different staff members: "How far can a player reach in pvp?" Answers from these different modmen ranged from around 2-6 blocks. This is crazy, and I think that modmen should know how to answer a simple question like this. Now I understand why modmen aren't allowed to punish for reach hacks: because most of them don't even know how far normal reach is lmao. Maybe if staff could NORMALIZE knowing basic information about reach, anti-kb, and autoclickers, then modmen could be responsible for handling punishments regarding these hacks instead of making players go through the lengthy process of recording and reporting to higher staff members.

    I hope staff take this into consideration and reevaluate what trainees need to know before becoming moderators, including basic game knowledge and identifying different types of hacks. I also hope I didn't -snip- any modmen here! Don't come at me and throw a hissyfit because some of you know you're in the wrong. Anyway, let me know what you think. Let's resolve this issue sooner than later.
    Posted Jan 24, 2021,
    Last edited by a Moderator Jan 24, 2021
    jis, SpitefulNick, sedn and 7 others like this.
  2. I agree mods lacking game knowledge bans legit players and lets closet cheaters run free

    Another problem ive lately seen is the amount of teaming at least in ssm. Litteraly no mods do anything about it even if theres reports and staffrequest should be at least rewarded since not everyone has a screen recorder for reports or good enough pc to run it.
    Posted Jan 24, 2021
  3. To clear this one up, the way it works is that new Trainees are given a mentor, who is an experienced Sr Mod, and that Sr Mod teaches them about the punishment system, things they can't punish for (like reach or inappropriate names - they get moved up to other staff members), etc. Every punishment a Trainee gives out is seen by their mentor who then picks out any false/incorrect punishments, revokes them on the player, and explains to the Trainee how it wasn't justified. They have their own little ways of mentoring too, I know I had QOTDs which ranged from game punishment knowledge to what I would say to a player asking something specific. Each mentor has their own style of mentoring so I can't comment on everyone's experience, but I'd say my mentors were very good at teaching me while I was a Trainee, because I thought I knew everything but I certainly didn't.

    Staff don't specialise in certain games, of course they would be less knowledgeable of games they do not play. Staff are encouraged to play all of the different games on the server to understand how it works but you can't expect them to. They are volunteers after all. When I was a staff member, I pretty much did not touch any report to do with Champions and Minestrike since I didn't trust myself to not falsely punish someone if they're not being completely blatant. There is nothing wrong with that. There are always staff that are more knowledgeable of games another staff is not which is why they can communicate with each other in-game as well if they need a second opinion or help on something else.

    I was taught pretty well of the different hacks there are, but I can't speak for all staff members as I used to hack way before I became a staff member as well as talk with the GWEN Lead at the time who liked to develop other anti-cheats on the side and I would often test them with him + he would tell me a lot of info in regards to different hacks.

    But having said that, fly hacking, speed, kill aura, anti kb, bhopping, etc are usually very easy to distinguish from normal behaviour by any staff member. Trainees might be a bit iffy on some but you have to understand that the last thing they want to do is falsely punish someone as a new staff member and get yelled at by their mentor so there is always nothing wrong in asking for help.

    Yeah, once again, blatant hacks are usually very easy to distinguish but I can't say I'm too surprised. The hacker was dealt with in the end - that's what's important. I do agree that there should be basic knowledge in games which is why the staff member did say "chickens can fly" - relatively correct, I suppose.

    Anyways, this is just one example.

    Yeah I can't really argue with this one - as I said before, usually it's easy to distinguish. There is an unlimited amount of appeals for false punishments and they are usually quickly answered too so that's the solution. I would have gotten a second opinion.

    However, you can't blame an entire staff team for mistakes a couple make. This thread does have some good insight though, I will give you that. But anyways, the majority of the staff team know what they are punishing for and know different types of hacks. It's not a common thing to falsely ban someone for bhop in SSM.

    I don't agree with all of this because:
    • Reach is very, very iffy. it's usually not blatant. High CPS can be mistaken for reach.
    • Anti-kb is usually fine and regular staff can punish for it, but altered knockback is where the problem lies. Altered knockback works very differently and the reason staff members can't punish for it (unless they're Quality Assurance) is because Mineplex's knockback is already different to how knockback really works. The way MP does it is more damage = more kb. So allowing normal staff to punish for altered knockback can be disastrous because it collides with the fact that Mineplex's kb is already altered. Many false punishments could arise.
    • High CPS can also be easily mistaken for auto-clickers. Some people butterfly or drag click which can get them 20cps or even more. Auto-clickers can be set for 20+cps also. Once again, it's iffy. Regular staff members do not have the information QA does about players in combat. Normal Moderators can see, get vague anti-cheat warnings, and that's really it. Quality Assurance has detailed logs on everybody.
    Your two previous points were 1. blatant hacks and not banned and 2. banned but it was false. I think everybody, including the staff members, want to reduce the amount of false bans. This is why there are strict rules on closeters or the hacks I listed above. Would you want more false bans?

    There is plenty of Quality Assurance members out there that deal with these situations every day and players are taken care of one way or another.

    Also, I understand the process is quite lengthy, but usually it is actually pretty simple. If you appeal for a false punishment, your appeal can still get accepted without evidence from your side. That is because the appeals team checks for evidence from the staff's side as well. If there is none, or the evidence they have is unjustified, your punishment will be revoked, no question.

    Many players shy away from appealing because they have it hardwired into their head that they will never get accepted reading horror stories of players that whine about not getting unbanned despite "never ever touching hacks in [their] life" while there is probably piles of evidence against them or they blatantly didn't follow the appeal guide every time. Staff don't want to keep a falsely-punished guy punished. But they can't check every single punishment ever given out on the server. There is way too many. In the 4-ish months that I was staff, I gave out over four thousand punishments. And that was just me. When I was a Trainee my mentors looked over the ones I did - but when I was a Moderator, not every single one was checked. You have to understand that staff members are trusted to make their own judgement by the time they become a Moderator so they shouldn't be shamed for asking for extra help or false banning (if it's a one-off thing), because the resources are out there for players.

    Refer to what I said about cheats in point 3 for OP's response, and

    I'm sorry to hear about the teaming thing. I have seen it often too, asking to team over someone that has 4 lives in solo mode while everyone else is on 1-2. But not everyone teams very blatantly, some players just barely ignore each other and focus the mvp of the game. It can be a difficult thing to punish for sometimes, and sometimes it's not against the rules.

    I honestly hate the teaming though and I find it very difficult to report it as well, but sometimes my StaffRequest calls do get answered and something is done about them but I still feel there should be stricter rules in place because it's unfair.
    Posted Jan 24, 2021,
    Last edited Jan 24, 2021
  4. Hii

    First of all, Trainees are promoted to Moderators through a 2 month trial, where they make mistakes, make improvements, etc. After this 2 month period of trials, they are given a test to work out if they are fit for the Moderator position. That's how Trainees are promoted.

    Understandably, not everyone plays SSM, and hence, not everyone understands the concepts of each kit. In this case, said moderator thinks that Chickens are able to fly. They aren't completely wrong, (chickens have a series of jumps allowing them to jump multiple times in a quick succession) but they aren't correct either. I understand your complaints, but I think the staff member acted rightly in this situation. They weren't sure of whether this player was cheating or not, and so they waited for evidence that was clear to them that they were playing unfairly.

    First of all, this isn't common knowledge. Bhop hacks come in many different shapes and sizes, but I do understand this case. Second of all, Moderators are not required to learn every single hack inside of Minecraft, they are voluntary members of staff that help the community - whether that be through punishing rule breakers or answering questions. Either way, your friend can appeal. If they weren't cheating, their appeal should be accepted.

    I disagree with this. It should not be a requirement for staff to understand this knowledge. There is a reason why there are staff members specifically that deal with reach and other closet hacks. They have access to Anti-Cheat logs, so it's a lot lot clearer to them than it is to the naked eye. Secondly, if you don't want to go through the "lengthy process of reporting to higher staff members", that's fine. You can simply use /report or use Staff Request. Either way works.

    I hope staff take this into consideration too, but I disagree that Trainees need to understand each and every corner, twists, and turns of hacks. Obviously, having common knowledge of hacks would be useful (such as identifying fly, killaura, etc.), but definitely not 100% required.
    Posted Jan 24, 2021
    RainbowUnicornGM and Fusafez like this.
  5. Staff request is not reliable since they aren't required to answer. A lot of times I don't get a response. And in the case I described, no I cannot use /report because the player is using reach, anti-kb, ac, etc. needs video evidence if I'm not mistaken. Not everyone has a pc good enough to record along with decent quality and fps. In this situation, you either have to pray a staff member will answer or report through forums with video evidence, which is a long process that doesn't even seem worth it in the end since it appears that PLAYERS are moderating the server more than moderators.
    OP OP
    OP OP Posted Jan 24, 2021
  6. Thanks for clearing some things up. When I was describing the "lengthy process" I was talking about reporting video evidence of hacking via forums. Like I mentioned earlier, not everyone is fortunate enough to have a pc that can run obs and still have good fps. Plus I think modmen should be moderating more than players, since it seems that so many players go out of their way to report hackers that could've been dealt with earlier if a modman had just responded in staff request.
    I understand you can appeal, but if I'm not mistaken, you can only appeal if the punishment is 30+ days or something like that. Or maybe that's just mutes , I'm not sure. Either way, I still think these mistakes happen far too often on the server. In the case I described, my friend was unbanned after speaking with a modman but it doesn't change the fact that modmen shouldn't make these silly mistakes to begin with.
    OP OP
    OP OP Posted Jan 24, 2021
    maevestarbaby likes this.
  7. There’s like 50 moderators and like 2,000 players, it’s not a miracle that players find more cheaters than moderators
    Posted Jan 24, 2021
  8. No problem, and oh, I see now.

    Maybe it seems like players moderate a lot more but staff do a lot of moderating on their own. Not all of them respond to StaffRequest but you have to remember they're playing games of their own so they're automatically moderating them, plus others might be in Staff-1 doing sub-team related stuff which could be from Reports Patrol, answering /reports, doing SRs, or other things (staff aren't allowed to afk in Staff-1 so chances are they are always working when they are there). As I said I know for me I hit over 4k punishments in the couple months I was staff which is dozens upon dozens times more than the amount of reports I made as a player. Of course, I was on Reports Patrol and answered /reports often so my number does not represent staff members that don't do either but I can assure that each Moderator is doing their deal of moderating, and if they are not active enough then they do face consequences from their monitors^^

    You are doing very good for reporting though, it's always great to do your part! If someone doesn't have the equipment that's understandable. If no one is there in StaffRequest, you can try to find a Moderator in Lobby-1 and contact them through /a or message an online Moderator on Discord

    As for your appeals question, you can only appeal justified punishments if they're over 30 days in length. But for any false punishments, no matter the length, you can appeal right away :)

    If you know and have evidence of a staff member acting unfairly toward you or someone else, you can also report them alongside an appeal if it's for you by making a ticket at mineplex.com/support or contacting a Sr Moderator on Staff Management. Just remember that you should do this if you know staff are doing things like not punishing their friends, punishing out of anger, breaking the rules themselves, etc.
    Posted Jan 24, 2021,
    Last edited Jan 24, 2021
    RainbowUnicornGM and Fusafez like this.
  9. I can certainly understand your frustration with false-bans or Mods not being able to recognize certain hacks in specific gamemodes. While we are supposed to have a good knowledge of all games on the network, it is very difficult to understand every game mechanic for each game. That is why staff use certain resources at our disposal, and ask other staff members for help if we are not positive about something.

    You mention how you were frustrated that a staff member had to ask another staff member for help regarding a fly hacker in SSM, but that is the best way for us to ensure we do not false ban when we are not entirely certain, which you also list as a concern. That mod was trying their best not to false ban someone, which I would prefer over accidently banning someone because they just didn't understand the game mechanics well enough. This was also a learning experience for that mod, because now they know for next time what to look for under those circumstances.

    I also know the post you are referencing, and while it is better to know more about minecraft game mechanics, regular mods don't have permission to ban for reach, which is why some staff members don't know the default reach. If we were able to punish for it, it would most likely be something we would be more thoroughly trained on, but because most of us have no received training on it, it is hard to expect every staff member to know the default reach.

    Staff are here to help the community, but we are not perfect. We make mistakes like everyone else, and while we try our best to avoid them, through weeks of training and trials, continued support from our mentors, and other resources, it would be impossible to eliminate all mistakes.
    Posted Jan 24, 2021,
    Last edited Jan 24, 2021
  10. As somebody who mentors & trains staff members for the team, I'm going to give a little statement-by-statement reply to some of your claims/queries in this thread, as well as address a few misconceptions about the training process and structure of the staff team as a whole.

    Staff do not specialise in specific games, besides Clans staff members (Clans Managers and Clans Management Assistants) who are on separate divisions of the server, this is because it's more efficient to spread the moderation team across the network rather than individuals on individual games.

    There is a chance you may have reported this player, the staff member may have seen they were a chicken and assumed that you had reported them for flight falsely. This would not be correct, and the staff member would not be encouraged or expected to do this but this is a one-off occasion that is a mistake. Mistakes happen a lot, as staff members are human beings just like everyone else here.

    It should be more re-assuring to you that staff are getting second opinions as this shows that we care about getting it right and ensuring that false bans are minimised. It's far better to allow a hacker an extra minute or so than to completely false ban a player who was enjoying the server, that is why we take caution in situations such as this.

    Then appeal, mistakes like this do happen. It's quite easy to mistake kits like this for hacks, but staff members are advised of the dangers of rule-breaking in SSM, and educated on the abilities of the classes as well as common misconceptions/mistakes made when distinguishing functionality with hacks.

    This isn't about "learning your hacks", the Moderator clearly has not made a mistake with knowing what hack is what or how hacks look, they've made a mistake with the differences between the game's functionality and a hack. Once again, this links back to my other points of mistakes being made when it comes to this genre of the network.

    Moderators, Trainees and most Sr Moderators are not allowed to punish for or detect for reach. They have no reason to understand or know how MC Reach works in terms of the maths & specific quantities, but rather how to report a user that they respect of reach, which will remain as an internal process. This also seems a bit unfair as it's a well known "trick/troll question" that players will ask to trip up staff. They are volunteers, they do not deal with reach, we as Staff Management do not bother training them on the ins and outs of MC reach, W-tapping, the impacts of ping and the effects of being on lower ground with higher CPS, they do not need to know this, the time could be spent more effectively on other important aspects, such as the network rules or delivery of customer service.

    We do, but knowledge is not the sole factor (or most important factor) taken into account when promoting a Trainee to Mod. This is very secretive, and I can't go into any specifics when it comes to this but there is a lot more that goes into a staff member than "knowing the vanilla reach values" or "understanding the speed a spider can jump side-to-side compared to other kits in SSM".

    Posted Jan 24, 2021
  11. Okay these replies are exactly why I probably should've asked modmen not to respond to my thread. Although I appreciate you guys trying to clear up misconceptions and explaining the responsibilities that staff members have, I hate to say that these replies have done nothing but repeated information that has already been stated earlier and elaborated on ideas that don't have to do with the main point I'm trying to get across. In fact, it frustrates me EVEN MORE that staff similarly to you cannot comprehend the real issue, being that those silly mistakes should not be occurring in the first place.

    I clearly stated that modmen SHOULD get a second opinion if they are confused. However my point is that they should not be mistaken by a "flying chicken" if the player is literally going 100mph across the map. There was obviously something wrong in the situation and they shouldn't even need a second opinion. It was blatant hacking.

    Stop repeating information about moderators not being able to punish for reach. I literally wrote in my thread that I understand this already. My point is that they should normalize being able to identify reach because it can be extremely blatant, especially if you are spectating a fight with someone who uses reach. I understand it can be more confusing with anti-kb and autoclickers and such, but if it is obvious that players are not taking any knockback at all or clicking 80cps then I think moderators should be able to do something about it rather than waiting for a higher staff member to review recordings.

    "Then appeal if falsely banned" okay that's great, but again I don't think silly mistakes should be made in the first place. Plus, you are wasting your own time as well as the players time by making these false punishments. Instead, make it well known what you can and cannot ban for within the staff community, and become more familiar with different hacks and such.

    I also stated that yes I KNOW that modmen are hUmAnS anD mAkE mistakes but the point is that these mistakes happen too often. So writing this in your reply doesn't add to the conversation at all. I hope this gives you guys a better understanding of the real problem here.
    OP OP
    OP OP Posted Jan 24, 2021
    Fusafez likes this.
  12. That's somewhat the point though, mistakes happen. They are quite literally inevitable. If Mineplex didn't allow staff members to make mistakes, there would be no one on the staff team, because I highly doubt that any staff member has not made at least one mistake or will make one. The reason we are explaining the process of appeals is to explain that we understand mistakes happen, on both sides. That's why players can also appeal some punishments that are justified, because Mineplex understands we all mess up. It would be like saying if you made a silly mistake on a test, and because of that one silly mistake you failed the entire test. It just doesn't make sense, because we as humans are prone to mistakes. Mistakes are how we learn, among other things.

    I also don't believe the statement "these mistakes happen too often" is truly that accurate. I believe this misconception stems from a psychology concept I did some studying on called the availability heuristic. Basically, people use experiences they have seen or heard about to determine how frequently something happens. You might hear about false bans frequently, but you don't hear about the hundreds, if not thousands, of legitimate ban that happen. I think the same thing happened with the photo you mentioned of the default Minecraft reach. I know a ton of staff members who were asked, and got it right, but those were not included in the photo. I can't say exactly how many people were asked, but if even 30 staff members were asked, and only 4-6 got it wrong, that is not the worst, considering it is not something we are trained on or can ban for. Also, I noticed you said if someone is taking no knockback we should be able to punish for that, and we can punish for no knockback, just not modified.

    We also mentioned the staff member asking for another opinion as being a good thing, because you mentioned what happened with the players using wolf kit. SSM has tons of kits and they each have very different mechanics, so even if a staff member has experience with SSM, they might have never seen how they kit works within the game.

    You seem frustrated about us repeating information, but the information is the truth and hard reality. The staff team is continually working on improving and adjusting, but it is not as easy as "fix it". Our training is very time intensive and filled with plenty of testing and questions already, that try to give us a good knowledge of every game and question, but there is only so much you can teach that way.
    Posted Jan 24, 2021
  13. "modmen lack game knowledge"

    if you don't want staff replying to your thread, then perhaps you should have thought twice before making a public thread calling out the staff team.

    are you telling people to stop being human? mistakes will always happen, i'm not sure how many different people have to mention that for it to make sense. telling us to stop replying that staff are human and mistakes happen but then complaining that silly mistakes shouldn't be made is awfully confusing. either you understand or you don't.

    if you wanna know my thoughts on the rest of your post feel free to read over TheJoshXGames' reponses, (so i don't repeat him,) although if you think it's so easy to detect different hacks and avoiding making silly mistakes, then maybe you should apply for trainee yourself.
    Posted Jan 24, 2021
  14. can't be bothered writing an essay like the people above, but it seems to me that the most direct solution (never said easy) would be fixing gwen so it catches virtually every hacker (including closeters) so staff members can turn their attention to other subjects like answering questions and sub team work
    Posted Jan 24, 2021
    sedn and Ducksicle like this.
  15. Was referring to specific staff members in the situations I listed above.

    I'm fine if they could add to this discussion, not repeating the same information over and over especially because they misread some things I stated earlier.

    No, I'm saying that by telling me that they are human adds nothing to this discussion because I already addressed that I'm aware that people make mistakes in my original thread. The point is that those "silly mistakes" don't ever get fixed. The same mistakes that I've witnessed throughout my time on MP have occurred over and over again. If a staff member makes a mistake, they should never make it again and also try to make sure other staff don't make that mistake as well.

    If I wanted to become a staff member I would. Instead of aggressively replying to this conversation by telling me that I should apply for trainee, I hope you understand that you don't know who I am and what my personal life is like. I do not have time to voluntarily moderate this server and I never plan on doing so.
    OP OP
    OP OP Posted Jan 24, 2021
    maevestarbaby and MaybeMulti like this.
  16. I agree with this. If moderators cannot punish for things that GWEN should take care of, yet so many hackers are able to get away with reach, anti-kb, ac, etc, then GWEN really needs to be fixed. It won't ever be perfect but GWEN is currently so unreliable and inaccurate. I know that many threads have been made regarding GWEN and it's issues so I won't really say more here.
    OP OP
    OP OP Posted Jan 24, 2021
    sedn and Paladise like this.
  17. If you write a thread complaining about staff and how they act, you must expect replies from staff explaining why some of your points aren't quite accurate.

    You have zero basis to claim the staff member actually saw this. You don't know they just saw the player, as a chicken, flying around (flapping) at a slow pace which is normal & then assumed that you had falsely reported this user without understanding the way the kit works in SSM. You have no way just to assume that the staff member saw what you know they need to see, if you're worried about staff helping you who lack game knowledge just record evidence and report it on the forums, that evidence can be carefully reviewed & critiqued by experts in certain games.

    The point about reach needs to be repeated because staff just can't ban for reach. I don't see how you see any benefits in spending time teaching staff members to identify users using reach, no matter how blatant it is if they literally are not capable of banning for it. The staff team do not "watch" or "identify" users using reach, we utilise Anti Cheat logs, that is the only way even QA can deal with this, end of story.

    I've got two issues with this. Firstly, "these mistakes happen too often", by writing the three or so mistakes you've seen staff make in this thread, you make the staff team out to look like they are always getting things wrong and most of the time we make large errors, yet this is not true. You have not counted the times where staff have accurately handled /reports or appeals, or your other requests in StaffRequest. I can say this confidently because I witness the staff team every day during work, and when I have to check over some of this work, most of the time - it's been very well done, if it hasn't, I will go over and put it right, or someone else will - whatever the case may be, it will be fixed.

    If you claim you know that staff are humans then how come you're writing a thread about the terrible workings of the staff team and how making two simple identification errors between kit usage and hacks in a very complex gamemode with experienced players who play every day and claiming this is unacceptable? I think you get my point by now that staff are human, but it's not really fair to say you know this but to not properly acknowledge this.

    To sum things up, I think a lot of your assumptions about how the staff team work aren't entirely correct. I feel that this thread works more on a small sample of issues you personally picked from interactions with staff rather than the wider picture of what actually goes on behind the scenes. ​
    Posted Jan 25, 2021
  18. I don't think you've read my reply to someone else earlier in this discussion. Asking someone to "just record it and report it" isn't really the player's job. In fact, the last time I checked, MODMEN should be moderating the server. At this point I'm convinced that staff wants players to take more responsibility and go out of their way to report people. As I stated earlier, not everyone is fortunate enough to own a pc that can run obs with decent quality along with good fps on the server. If there is already a modman in the lobby where I'm reporting something, THEY can record/report it to higher staff if they're confused.

    You literally repeated the same information again and completely ignored my point, but let me elaborate to help you understand this. For the 100th time, I am aware that modmen cannot deal with reach/anti-kb/ac hackers. I mentioned multiple times I get that. The reason I think modmen should still learn about these hacks is that if there's a case where a player IS blatantly hacking, a modman could record and report it to QA instead of just waiting for a player to go out of their way to record. I've had modmen playing games like cw along with closeters and do nothing about it, when they could easier record and report like many players already do on forums. Since modmen are part of the staff community, they should also automatically have easier connections with QA.

    You cannot compare the amount of reports done correctly vs. the amount of reports done incorrectly and just say "good enough." Regardless of how many are done correctly, there are still far too many done wrong. I never said that MOST reports were mistakes. I said that too many silly mistakes occur and don't get fixed. I remember in the past a modman falsely banned someone for "bhop" while they were playing spider in SSM and the EXACT same thing happened the other day. If I were a staff member that made this mistake, I would be ashamed but also go out of my way to make sure other staff members don't make this mistake as well. It seems like staff just waits for every modman to mess up in order to learn, but instead staff should be HELPING each other learn by expressing mistakes from their experiences in the staff community in order to prevent the same mistakes from happening.

    I don't know what you're trying to say. Mistakes are mistakes until you fix them. I never said modmen were "not human" but that some modmen are just incredibly unknowledgeable and should not have their position if they are going to continue making such silly errors and never fix them within the staff community. I made this thread because it IS unacceptable and extremely irresponsible, and it seems pretty clear that my opinion has offended you which is why I literally stated in my original thread that I hope I dont 'hurt' any modmen and that I don't want staff throwing a fit at me because they cannot take the criticism. It would be much easier if modmen could just accept the fact that they are wrong for making said errors, and then do something about it to prevent other modmen from making the same mistakes. I'm literally not trying to flame you if it makes you feel better. Just being completely honest after my experiences and my friends' experiences with staff on the server.

    Or maybe you just think these are small issues, which they are not. The fact that there have barely been any changes with the scenarios in the thread goes to show that staff isn't doing anything about this lack of knowledge. I wish I knew what really went "behind the scenes," because from my interactions from staff members, NOTHING seems to be happening. One update is always followed by another bug, another glitch, more issues and never gets resolved. Like how GWEN has been so broken for quite some time now. Every time I've suggested something, it immediately gets shut down because I either "offended" a modman or they simply refuse to believe that the server/forums can be improved. Every suggestion I've written about the punishment system, forums sections, trainees/modmen have always been denied without even discussing among the staff community. And most of the time, modmen reply to my suggestions within a day, which means they haven't even put much thought into it.
    OP OP
    OP OP Posted Jan 25, 2021
    Paladise likes this.
  19. No I haven't, as I said, I have acknowledged that you are aware of this fact. My point is that if QA can only use GWEN Metadata and the only basis for getting a player punished here is "thinking" they are somewhat suspicious. This belief of us "having better knowledge to punish for reach" is completely wrong, so much goes into banning for reach and so much can convolute this decision and make a player appear guilty or innocent that it is not worth it, that is my point.

    Your opinion has not offended me. The reason I've taken to replying to this thread is that it seems you are spreading lots of uncertainty and incorrect information about the staff team in general, which is something I need to address.

    Staff members do make mistakes, of course, and we've already covered this, but they are not making countless silly errors that can be rectified. If a staff member were to make an error, like chicken flight (as referenced in your original thread) they will be notified by their mentor and guided on why it was wrong, how it was wrong and what to do next time. The mentor will then fix this mistake and put anything right. Mistakes are good, they lead to the teaching of staff members. We don't encourage mistakes and I definitely don't like my staff to make mistakes that impact the gameplay experience of people, as you have clearly felt in the past but these mistakes lead to more tidy and improved moderation for these staff members because the mistake pushes them to do better and learn for next time. That is the whole point of Trainee.

    Trainees go through Staff Reports, I'm sure you know of this, and this is because we know they are bound to make a few mistakes at first. This is why we, as mentors and mentoring assistants check through their work scrupulously, reviewing the evidence and then marking any mistakes down & correcting them. Trainees will always learn from this experience.

    I wish I could tell you as it would better fix this misunderstanding, but I can't as some of it is private internal information. I'll tell you as much as I can regarding "behind the scenes" when it comes to mentoring but there's only so much we can say. Additionally, please don't relate "buggy updates" and "glitches" with the moderation team, they are completely independent, and these volunteer staff members have no relation to the development/bug patches of the server (besides the QA team).

    None of your suggestions will be or are being "shut down" because you are offending people. You seem to be misinterpreting my tone here, I am simply informing you of the facts and why some of your claims regarding the state of the moderation team are not entirely factual. I think you would agree somebody who mentors & manages staff members would be more informed on something like this than a player who has witnessed a few errors made by staff members.

    I'm not saying "good enough" and I'm not insinuating these mistakes you encountered are "good enough" or should be cast to the side. What I'm saying is it is unfair for you to illustrate a picture of the overall staff team that depicts a general extreme lack of game knowledge or quality of work over 2 misunderstandings that happened with a Mod. If it would help, you can go to me about these, tell me who was involved and where and if the players were cheating and they weren't dealt with I can take care of that for you - this is a constructive approach to an issue like this.​

    Posted Jan 25, 2021
  20. We are still taught about some closet hacks, just not reach specifically, because even if we record, that is not enough evidence. As Oscar said, "we utilize Anti Cheat logs, that is the only way even QA can deal with this". You also don't know if they didn't do anything, staff communicate through many private channels. Depending on the hack being used, they could have asked another staff member to record and forward it to QA, or asked for QA to review. This process is frequently longer than community members understand, so it may look like we are not doing something, when we are.

    I think Oscar covered everything else I wanted to say in his reply, so I won't just repeat everything he said. The main point we are trying to get at though is that you don't want Mods to make mistakes, but then get mad at Mods when they take time to ensure something is actually hacking. It seems like either way, we are in fault, because if we take the time to double check, we don't know what we are doing, or if we ban not 100% positive and it is false, then we don't know what we are doing again.

    On top of all of this, we are a volunteer staff team. We don't have the time to teach every single minute detail, even though we try to be as thorough as possible. We all have personal lives, schools, and/or work, so it is just not something we can do.
    Posted Jan 25, 2021
    anna., Fusafez and Oscaros_ like this.

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