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Maps are a "Content Supplements"

Discussion in 'Super Smash Mobs' started by 73GG, Sep 16, 2020.

  1. Maps in Super Smash Mobs appear to me to be a "Content Supplement" for the lack of updates the game receives. To my understanding, the game hasn't received a significant gameplay update outside of occasional bug fixes in over 2 years now. Of course the only update the game having received in these 2 years are map updates with some having been removed, revamped and returned and new ones being added.

    While map updates are always appreciated within any gamemode on Mineplex and similar servers, they shouldn't be the only update that the game is receiving. Maps in this context are being used more as a way to cloud the idea of the gameplay needing an update and kits needing balance changes.

    Not only this, but all current map updates that have been submitted in the past 2 years have been community creations, not delivered by the Mineplex Official Builders. Using maps created by the community as a means of "new content" is firstly - repetitive - but secondly and more importantly, lazy and displays ignorance to what your community is asking for.

    In conclusion, despite the gamemode often garnering one of the highest consistent playercounts on Java, it has been seemingly neglected by the Mineplex's build teams, development teams and so on.
    Posted Sep 16, 2020,
    Last edited Sep 16, 2020
    Crash, Sven, ARareBlackBear and 4 others like this.
  2. Hello!

    While it might seem like a "content supplement", as you said most of the maps are community-made. This means that many maps can be accepted very easily especially since both the Map Submissions Team and Map Testing Team are made up of volunteers and therefore there are a lot of them. While for releasing an actual update, that will require significant developer time. Considering we only have 1 full time Java developer, it might take a while before an SSM update is released, especially since there have been other releases within the recent months. Hopefully though this means that the Developers can focus on another big project. And while you say that the Build team doesn't actually create maps, most builders work on projects by themselves so it won't have the "Mineplex Build Team" team name, instead having their individual names. Taking a look at the most recent Map Update, it seems like 4 were made by Mineplex Builders. I'm sure developers are already aware that games like SSM need an update, so we all just need to be patient.
    Posted Sep 16, 2020
    Susie likes this.
  3. maps and updates aren’t made by the same people so it doesn’t really matter
    Posted Sep 16, 2020
    Hillly, Jaek, joshbet9 and 3 others like this.
  4. Well @AlexTheCoder was re-hired today, so now we have 2 full time devs.
    Posted Sep 16, 2020
  5. Of course I don't know a lot about Mineplex's financial situation but one can assume they earned a bucket load of money from their fairly recent rebrand of "PPC" into Immortal.

    You would have thought they would hire more than 1 Developer to at least give reason to paying Mineplex money every month to have their rank.

    To put it bluntly, the reason Mineplex fell off so hard in the first place is because of their lack of attention to what the server needs and wants. The reason other servers excel and dominate the scene is because their gamemodes are regularly updated and tended to. If Mineplex only has the resources of ONE full-time Developer then why do they still have so many minigames? Surely the workload for that one Developer is immense.

    Furthermore, while the game does most certainly need an update, the priority focus should be shifted onto a simple balance change. I'm no Java professional but I can't imagine changing the damage values in a config file for particular kits is much of a hardship.
    OP OP
    OP OP Posted Sep 16, 2020
    Crash likes this.
  6. Hi I'm a builder not a dev, my goal is not to 'supplement' updates, my job is to make maps. I do my job, and devs do theres. We are not the same B)
    Posted Sep 16, 2020
    Hillly, wattywatty14, Loofii and 7 others like this.
  7. Agreed, however...

    This is incorrect. Maps are made by people entirely independent of the process for gameplay updates, and builders are generally not told to make one type of map or another.
    Posted Sep 16, 2020
    Im_Ken, Xukuwu and Young_Inventor like this.
  8. I have no idea where the developer attention is at right now, but I agree that games need updates to not inevitably die off, but our very limited quantity of developers right now does not help our situation.

    As for your main point of the thread, as almost every person has said so far, Builders are completely separate from production. That also includes community map submissions, which you claim most of the SSM maps have become now. While that is true, here are a couple things that you didn’t really consider about why that’s the case:

    1. Smash maps are extremely hard to not only make, but also to get live. A Smash map creator has to have expansive knowledge of every kit and the types of vantage points/open areas/caved-off ones/whatever else, and quite frankly, nobody on the Build Team is an SSM main, meaning the likelihood of us making a bad map for the game is very high. Community members who main the game and make the maps are theoretically far more likely to make a good map for the game than non-experienced Builders.
    2. -snip-. Nobody wants to build a map for people if they’re going to get harassed over it.

    This doesn’t even touch on the beast that is GI testing, but I hope ya understand anyways.
    Posted Sep 17, 2020
    Crash, Camull ✩, JAKE/// and 9 others like this.
  9. -snip-

    someone has ptsd from building candyland
    Posted Sep 17, 2020
  10. It's not just Candyland, it happened to me with Blizzard too and I was so incredibly reluctant to put my name on Welcome To The Jungle because of it. Let's talk about Tropics though, the doc made by SSM members had to be completely rewritten before it was in any way constructive and ablt to result in the maps removal. It's just so baffling to me how a map can go through GI testing and be approved by people who are supposed to be experienced only for them to turn around and trash it when it's live, wouldn't that also be off-putting to you as someone who just wanted to build a map? If that's what ends up happening with 90% of maps why would anyone bother? Nothing Pace said can be dismissed, that's just how it is a lot of the time. Of course not the whole community is bad, but there is an incredibly loud few people that seem to ruin it for everyone else.
    Posted Sep 17, 2020
    ClassN, rqil, Vocaloiid and 1 other person like this.
  11. It's agreeable that any creation in any aspect - whether that be a map build or a piece of real world art - will always have a select minority of people that dislike the creation.

    Unfortunately, the Super Smash Mobs community can often be too vocal about their opinions on maps, however, this should more so be taken as criticism instead of toxicity. For example, let's look at the weaknesses of the 2 maps mentioned: Candyland and Blizzard.

    Firstly, both maps had huge holes in the near centre of both creations in which Void would consume the souls of unfortunate players. This irritates players as easily winnable games can be immediately thrown away from a miss timed jump or ability knocking you into the hole. Nothing is more tilting then falling to your death at full health.

    Secondly, before Blizzard's release there was already a snow themed map: Glacier. From my community experience, Glacier is another strongly disliked map. Often this is because of the excess of Void. Now we are starting to notice a trend. If a snowy map with lots of Void was already disliked, why make a second? Both Candyland and Blizzard had and still do have a large amount of Void. Since their map updates, the amount of Void has been reduced by shrinking or removing the huge holes in the map of course.

    Another thing to consider is aesthetics. The majority of Super Smash Mobs maps follow a nature based theme. Lots of green, trees, nature etc. This theme is befitting of a game that uses Animals and Mobs as their avatars. However, a pink map with a brown swirl and another snow map with the exact same palette as the previous one? Possibly too ambitious. I respect that especially with Candyland you are trying to introduce map variety but maybe the community doesn't want that. The most successful maps are the ones that follow the nature format. They are often the most enjoyable to look at and certainly the most enjoyable to play on as using trees, ruins, huts and other obstacles to bounce off of encourages more use out of the mobility aspect of the gamemode.

    Let me know what you think though. Perhaps I am being overcritical? I personally don't concern myself with what map is next as playing different maps keeps the game fresh and interesting.

    However, these are the sorts of criticisms that the community is trying to voice.
    OP OP
    OP OP Posted Sep 17, 2020
  12. I appreciate criticism, but when the 'criticism' comes along with personal attacks that's where my issue lies. Like I said, the entire Tropics doc had to be completely rewritten to actually be constructive, before that it was nothing but negative and harsh.

    Yep, I agree, but why weren't these things mentioned in GI testing before the map went live? That's an easy thing to catch that seemingly went unnoticed. I expect the people experienced enough to be selected for GI to bring these things up during the testings, that is the whole point of having them.

    A gamemode isn't restricted to have 1 map per theme. Look at Skywars, there's like 4 snow based maps in that gamemode. Why is SSM any different? The gameplay is what matters, not the theme. Glacier is not my issue to deal with nor was it considered as a starting point for creating the layout. We didn't 'make a second' we made a new map with a new layout that happened to also have a lot of void and use the same theme.

    I appreciate that yes, it makes sense to have nature based maps, but that doesn't mean people can't experiment. I'd argue that Hyrule isn't nature based but it's still well liked. Aesthetics mean next to nothing in SSM, at least for me, so I don't really get this point but I digress. Blizzard and Glacier have different pallets, Blizzard uses mostly snow, clay and grass where Glacier uses mostly snow and blue glass. Just because the core block is the same does not mean the entire pallet is. As for Candyland, it was based off a Skywars map, clearly the theme works in other games, I don't see why SSM would be any different. If they community doesn't want non nature based maps why have I never seen this argument for Build or Hyrule? Just seems strange. Additionally, both Blizzard and Candyland have trees and other tall obstacles that fit their theme, so I don't understand that point either.

    I appreciate how you've voiced this, however I still disagree with how some community members voice their thoughts in the form of personal attacks and sarcastic comments. It's not helpful, unlike this.
    Posted Sep 17, 2020
    affinity0, 73GG and Paladise like this.
  13. I think all the counterpoints you have made are completely valid and do make sense.
    I understand that often constructive criticism can be weaponized to intentionally harass a builder's creation and that really must suck.

    Although, I'm not disputing that toxicity does or does not exist within this community and I have seen very negative and abrupt responses to new maps that might get under somebody's skin. That said, what I was trying to indicate is that if you're able to see past the toxic remarks and look for the weaknesses in the map design then it will definitely help improve map design for that map.

    For example, I personally think "Welcome to the Jungle" is a significantly improved map in comparison to it's "Blizzard" counterpart. You recognised what the flaws were in the previous map and rectified them with creating a completely unique map that features little to no void. I think "Welcome to the Jungle" may need a little more height variation on the island ridges to better utilize double jumps but that aside, I think it's an incredibly fresh and new concept that should be well welcomed.

    To both rqil and yourself; @xLeopard please try not to assume my criticism as negativity. I play all maps equally and I don't personally dislike either of the maps mentioned. I just feel they have more flaws than most other maps making them a little more tilting at times.

    Nonetheless, I don't think you should be discouraged by the toxicity of random people you are never going to meet. Out of 60 maps live - incredible by the way - you are bound to have plenty of successful maps and you shouldn't be deterred by the loud mouths who think their opinion is absolute and refuse to see the positives in a creation :)

    (A skilled enough player shouldn't have their gameplay determined by a few poor map choices).
    OP OP
    OP OP Posted Sep 18, 2020
    xLeopard likes this.
  14. I understand where you are coming from, but sometimes the feedback given is very far from constructive, especially when so much goes into only releasing the best maps. I can assure you that the MTT thoroughly test every map, we run maps through the Game Insights team as well to get their two cents on how the map works with gameplay. However not every map can be everyone's favourite, not every map will appeal to every person who plays it and fit with their play style.

    No builder or community should ever have to worry about having their name on a map, they should be able to take pride in the work they put so much into. If you have builders contemplating whether to put their own name on a map they built for fear of response then that's not an issue with the map, that's an issue with the way feedback is being given.

    However, I think we have deviated very far from the original point of this thread.

    I also wanted to address this. This is actually very far from the truth, whilst we do get a fair number of community made maps, many are built by the build team. Both are put through the same testing and held to the same standards. If a map is repetitive or lazy, it will not go live, simple as that, I myself have even had a map denied for lack of originality in terms of theme. The map submissions team exists to make sure that only the best maps make it to the next stage in the submission process.
    Posted Sep 18, 2020
    Anna-Marie, xLeopard and 73GG like this.
  15. Hey, I understand why you think this. I feel the same way sometimes but you have to realize Mineplex is more than just one game! It has multiple great games that need fixes too! If you really feel like something needs to be done you can probably try to get in contact with some of the higher ups.
    Posted Sep 24, 2020
  16. WOah BOys We gonna go fishing with all the bait laying about. PSA though, those community submitted maps for SSM also have Mineplex builders as the credit so that point is invalid. "Welcome to the Jungle" Made by @xLeopard, "Badlands" Built by @Tea, and "builD" built by @Tea Epic attempt at the fishing hole though :D
    Posted Sep 25, 2020
    affinity0, xLeopard and Tea like this.
  17. You build great maps but you need better names hilly
    Posted Sep 25, 2020
  18. You appear to be taking this thread far too personally.

    It's not an attack against map content creators. Merely stating the fact that nowadays a lot of maps are community made.

    This was discussed in earlier posts to which Builders did agree that a lot of maps are community made:

    I suggest you read between the lines instead of taking the criticisms head on and becoming offended.
    OP OP
    OP OP Posted Sep 25, 2020
  19. Im not going to repeat what others have said but one thing, I think, is clear for me.

    I would rather have a well thought out SSM map and have less come out than have more SSM maps but at a lower quality. Builders only have what is at their disposal. If there is no SSM 'expert' there won't be an SSM map by the build team. It's as a simple as that - although maybe altering processes to encourage SSM mains to apply and be accepted on the build team may be an avenue forward, it's definitely not my call to make.

    There's no doubt that SSM desperately needs an update. Kits are broken, mechanics are wack and everything is in need of an overhaul. But I would rather wait for a good update than a rushed one.
    Posted Sep 25, 2020,
    Last edited Sep 25, 2020
    xLeopard, JAKE///, 73GG and 1 other person like this.
  20. No <3

    First off, it is a Builder's job to build maps so it's not a content supplement, along with that, builder's can build for any gamemode they want, they are not assigned a gamemode to build for, they are free to build for any gamemode they want. Usually the sweaty SSM community members/GI build the SSM maps because they know what to look for in SSM maps and builder usually hate building SSM maps in general because they just don't like the gamemode.
    Posted Sep 25, 2020

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