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It's Nerf or Nothing.

Discussion in 'Super Smash Mobs' started by xOeuf, Dec 24, 2018.

  1. Hey,
    Recently I've been seeing a lot of talk about nerfing certain kits on the forums. Today I want to focus on Wolf & Spider, as they're generally seen as the most unbalanced. Having talked to members of the Smash Game Insights, I gained the knowledge of a potential upcoming patch that would make changes to many kits and shift gameplay in general. (This is not a certain fact, take with a grain of salt.) Below are the proposed changes from the community.

    Changes to Spider would include (but are not limited to):

    Needler cooldown increase.
    Needler damage changes (removing poison or arrow damage).
    Re-introduction of jump energy (with modifications that would increase jump energy through combat).
    Changes to webs (duration/damage).


    Changes to Wolf would include (but are not limited to):

    Reduction to max damage of ravage passive.
    Changes to cub tackle so that it despawns if it does not hit a target.
    Changes it overall damage or kb stats of the kit.
    Hitbox adjustments.
    Possible changes to the dynamics of wolf strike.


    Because this is currently being so hotly debated, I decided to ask some avid SSM players on what they think about those proposed changes, and what they'd like to see in an upcoming patch for SSM.

    GreatMCGamer: Top 5 Global - 13,961 wins.
    -Agrees with those general changes.
    -Believes that SSM should be hosted on its own server.
    -unapproved link-

    Cloudiie (CloudiieClaus): Top 10 EU - 8,591 wins.
    -Cloudiie says that it's best to just enjoy the game as it is.
    -Believes that a needler cooldown increase would be appropriate.
    -Thinks that Spider's jump in its current state is acceptable.
    -Thinks that ravage needs a nerf.
    -Says that a wolf cub nerf is also a good idea.
    -unapproved link-

    CubicB: #15 Leaderboards - 7,476 wins.
    -Cubic states that Spider is a well-made kit, but that other kits don't have the same edge during fights.
    -unapproved link-

    TorchoTichy: #33 Leaderboards - 5,831 wins.
    -Torcho thinks that spider is very strong right now, but that it shouldn't have a movement nerf as that's what defines the kit itself.
    -He proposed the idea of needler either only having arrow damage or lower damage in general. This would mean that poison is not dealt on contact with the arrows but that they still deal KB.
    -He also agrees that spin-web could despawn faster.
    -Says that giving spider wolf-level armor would be an interesting idea.
    -Said that spin-web could stay longer depending on how far the target is hit from. (Close targets = faster despawn & vice-versa).
    -Proposed idea of needler using XP bar.
    -unapproved link-
    -unapproved link-
    -unapproved link-

    SpookySpooder (Virgile): #40 Leaderboards - 5,526 wins.
    -Says the game should stay as it is.
    -unapproved link-

    Holistically (man with a plan): Zombie/Spider main - 2,669 wins.
    -Says that needler should have a longer cooldown but with no arrow damage and only poison.
    -Says that web spray should be reduced in size but increased in accuracy.
    -Would be ok with an energy-based jump.
    -Says that even with a reduced melee damage of 4, spider would still be good.
    -Says that wolf would be ok with an energy-based jump.
    -Says that ravage should be more gradual in its damage increase and that it should time out faster than it currently does.
    -unapproved link-
    -unapproved link-
    -unapproved link-

    Hosted (luca): One of the best spiders EU - 1,938 wins.
    -Believes that spider is good right now, but would understand an energy-based jump under the condition that energy is set to full every time you spawn.
    -unapproved link-

    iKilliLaugh (iglee): Magma main - 1,168 wins.
    -Wishes that spin-web despawned quicker.
    -Says that wolf cub should have a way to be mitigated once you're stuck in it (for example hitting the cub away).
    -Says wolf's ravage needs a nerf.
    -Would be alright with an armor reduction to the wolf kit.
    -Says needler's poison damage should be chance-based (not every needle will give poison)
    -Says wolf needs a jump nerf (energy-based).
    -unapproved link-
    -unapproved link-

    And finally, me:
    -I personally think that SSM is a very hard game to balance: every player has their favored kit and naturally wants it to stand out from other kits in order to gain an advantage. As a wolf/spider main I wouldn't mind needler's poison to be removed and web's spread/duration to be changed, but for both wolf and spider I feel that it would be sad to see the infinite directional jumps go, since they are mobility based and long-ranged kits can easily damage them once slowed. Ravage definitely needs a good rework and wolf needs to have a couple changes for wolf cub so that it doesn't last as long. Otherwise I think both kits are in a good spot.

    In general, I think what the community wants to see is a rework of SSM overall. This thread only goes over two kits which are in a very strong spot, and opinions are very mixed. I feel that with a patch sometime soon we'll get the opportunity to see new content as well as more balanced matchups and fights between kits that might currently not fare so well.
     
    Posted Dec 24, 2018
    ChrisPKStar, CCozy, zytrus and 4 others like this.
  2. Props to you man! Your thread was really well put together.
     
    Posted Dec 24, 2018
    xOeuf likes this.
  3. didnt even read it. ye i agree but wtf u said nothing about creeper. creeper should have only leather chest armour without helm. so op
     
    Posted Dec 24, 2018
  4. Again, this thread focuses on only wolf and spider. I'm planning on making threads for other kits soon :D
     
    OP OP
    OP OP Posted Dec 25, 2018
  5. Try again
     
    Posted Dec 25, 2018
    xOeuf likes this.
  6. I did main wolf back before I quit, and to those wolf ideas I say,

    no lol, wolf strike is one of the least OP things about Wolf.

    this isn't possible, I don't think. Not in 1.8 at least. Also, why? If you increase the hitbox of Wolf itself, it just becomes inaccurate. This seems to be something that'll just benefit people who can't aim properly.

    Again, why? I mean if you walk into the cub after it has missed and landed, that's your fault. It only lasts for a few seconds afterwards anyway. And, realistically speaking, you're not going to be knocked into it often.

    As for your proof, more wins ≠ credible opinions. Especially in GreatMCGamer's case, considering he wasn't that good, + doesn't even play anymore. I also don't understand why "One of best EU spiders" is relevant information (For luca (Hosted)) considering barely anyone plays EU. If I really wanted to, I could log on to EU and be considered the best for like over half the kits. + Hes not even a good spider so :eyes:
     
    Posted Dec 25, 2018
    • Unapproved Discussion
    standalOne game very good yes, now we can blame them for copying from -snip- too yes
     
    Posted Dec 25, 2018,
    Last edited by a Moderator Dec 27, 2018
    SirInHueman likes this.
  7. @SirInHueman Hey,
    The changes to wolf are most likely aimed at those within lower skill boundaries, as not everyone has perfect aim either.
    As for skill being a factor in credible opinions, I understand that not everyone agrees with what these people have to say, but for one I would like to highlight the fact that with wins come experience & playtime. The higher the win rate, the more likely it is that they also know each kit and have a good basis to form an opinion around.
    As for Hosted and GreatMC, both are very strong players and I'm going off of statistics. Great is currently top 5 in leaderboards and Hosted is also a very strong spider worldwide, and has a very strong win/loss ratio to back himself up. I don't think EU or US server differences matter in that case as I'm just going off of where his ping tends to be better.
    I added "One of the best spider players" as it shows that he himself has a high degree of familiarity with the kit and knows how to play it well :P
    With what you mentioned about wolf strike being one of the kit's last OP moves, I'd just like to highlight that these are not my opinion but what SmashGI states in general about the kit.

    I hope that this helps at least a little to clarify some things - the thread is not set to rank players or attack others with high stats, but to give a voice to a select few players who are more "seasoned" within the game and comment on proposed changes to SSM in general. :D

    Btw Merry Christmas <3
     
    OP OP
    OP OP Posted Dec 25, 2018
  8. Wolf strike- Yeah, it's not really what makes wolf OP, the change I assume they're talking about is the reduction of the time the hitbox (or more accurately I guess, hurtbox) of wolf strike is active, so it won't be able to hit a player with it by walking into someone after missing. This is a nerf, that from what I understand, is coming to slime slam and death's grasp as well.

    Cub tackle- Don't you think cub tackle is strong enough already, even without being able to get hit by it after wolf missed? Yes, it's your mistake, but it can provide a dead zone for wolf to use, even if a small one. Additionally, while in a 1v1 it might not offer that much help, and it would be a mostly a mistake on your part if you walk into it, in a crowded 4v4 (or more) on a small map with a lot of stuff going on, it can be difficult to notice the small cub on the ground, and not noticing can be fatal, resulting in your death many times.
     
    Posted Dec 25, 2018
    SirInHueman likes this.
  9. As an old SSM player, these have always been changes that I've wanted to happen to these kits. As SSM has loads of kits, it is not possible to balance out every kit, however it is possible to at least make the game playable. With these changes at hand, I feel that it could balance out SSM more. Maybe not in a way to make every kit "fair", since they all are unique and have their own ups and downs,it's enough to make people enjoy the game more (in my opinion). Great idea, also liked how you asked some current SSM players. Added a good twist to your thread. +1
     
    Posted Dec 25, 2018
  10. This is your first mistake. Going off of statistics.

    Debateable. Some people with really low wins beat people with thousands and thousands of wins more than them. Im speaking from experience. And im not saying that just to say that. You see it everywhere in the ssm community, where you have someone with say, ~3000 wins beating someone with ~6000 wins. What I'm saying is, theres a bunch more factors other than just statistics, and that statistics make a very small portion of someones skill. Especially win/loss rate. Win loss rate is out of public games. Public games have 4 people. 4 people can come with people interrupting you, targeting you, teaming on you, with the occasional hacker you might see. You need to take ALL of that into consideration with win/loss ratio. It's just not an accurate number.

    Again, this isn't accurate. Your going off of s t a t i s t i c s

    This literally isn't accurate. He isn't one of the best spiders! He's alrdy yelled at me in discord for calling him bad but, he's just NOT one of the best spiders. He's only beaten the 1st/2nd best spider in EU, and he only went 2 - 2. As for US, he got 3 - 0'ed (In terms of games won, not lives. Ig he lost 3 games to the 1st/2nd best spider). Also yes, this is recent. Recent as in, a few days ago. And to add on to the stats mean nothing, the 1st/2nd spider (Legally, I have to say "1st/2nd best spider" every time) only has 1.8k wins. This shows how often he goes onto an MPS (Private server) as compared to public games. (If you don't believe me, his IGN is Whoneedspacee)

    Happy late Christmas mate.
     
    Posted Dec 26, 2018
  11. Oof
     
    Posted Dec 26, 2018
  12. What?! How dare you not ask ME, the (once upon a time) BEST CHICKEN EU for opinions on these kits?!?!?!?!? /s

    Dumb jokes aside, while I don't think Wolf is that OP (to me, it's more or less a worse Spider), good 'ol Spider 100% needs a nerf. Insane mobility, insane combo potential, and an ability that's nearly undodgeable except for RNG, that spells certain death for many kits.
    As far as I'm concerned, anyone who thinks Spider is fine as it is just likes abusing it for free wins. (I'm not trying to start beef with anyone, I'm just saying it how it is.)

    As it is, SSM has like 5 kits that are actually somewhat viable, and the other ~16 are made completely useless by the existence of those few good kits. Look at the difference in power between Spider or Zombie vs Chicken or Magma Cube, the latter kits will never stand a chance in a fair fight.
     
    Posted Jan 2, 2019
    neropatti and SirInHueman like this.
  13. Spider and wolf are both op kits, but they do not deserve drastic nerfs as some of the nerfs suggested. Instead, the other kits should be buffed. Buffing is better than nerfing, as nerfing will usually make a game more lame to play for players who are accustomed the older versions of kits they played. For example, if you gave spider xp dj, it would be a huge adaption for a lot of spider players to make who are accustomed to no xp bar. Last time the xp bar was implemented, it was removed because of the community backlash. You can't make a change that drastically changes the playstyle of the kit in a bad way, it will be received badly always. Over the life span of ssm, the top tier kits have been slammed with nerfs while the low tier kits are barely even touched. I don't get why ssm gi nerfs everything. It's a terrible mindset. People wouldn't be complaining about kits like spider and wolf if their kits had actually good options. When was the last time you've seen a kit like chicken or wither skeleton get actual important buffs? Wither skeleton got a tiny buff with more wither image speed and no self damage on wither skull, but for some reason they still decided to nerf wither skull down to max 10 damage because 12 is too much apparently for an already low tier kit. Spider doesn't need RNG to dodge it's fierce options most of the time unless it is an even skill match. You should probably go learn how to fight spider before you complain about it. You don't need to play a traditional top tier such as skeleton or zombie to beat it, it can be beaten by some lower kits on the tier list. And mentioning the "viable kits", there is definitely more than 5. At the most, I would say 13 of the kits are viable and snowman and worse is where kits start becoming unviable. On your point of how spider is for free wins, it isn't really. Spider does require skill (not as much as kits like zombie or villager), but it does require great melee ability and aiming of spin web to be played competitively. Mastering the art of triple jumping is also essential for the kit.

    TL;DR: Spider and wolf do not deserve drastic nerfs and instead other kits should be buffed to deal with spider and wolf's options because buffing is better than nerfing.
     
    Posted Jan 6, 2019
  14. honey, more than these features need nerfs.
    but I can agree with the ones listed
     
    Posted Jan 6, 2019
  15. Hey :D
    Again, I've acknowledged that, but stated that I simply want to focus on those two kits because they're what I feel would be the most polemic/complex to re-work.
    Have a nice day <3
     
    OP OP
    OP OP Posted Jan 6, 2019
  16. We need more buffs than nerfs. Nerfs make the game feel lame. Buff the other kits to deal with the kits that are too good
     
    Posted Jan 6, 2019,
    Last edited Jan 6, 2019
    zytrus and xOeuf like this.
  17. i'm a magma main and spider and wolf do p a i n f u l amounts of damage so i 100% agree :D
     
    Posted Jan 6, 2019
    Padba and xOeuf like this.
  18. I'll "learn how to play against Spider" once you tell me how to consistently dodge Spin Web without playing a kit such as Wolf, Magma Cube or Spider itself. I'll be waiting.

    Quite frankly I can't be bothered reading your wall of text but what I noticed skimming over are you indirectly insulting me, Spider =/= free wins because it takes skill, and buffs > nerfs.

    I can kind of agree with the last point, but enough is enough. How much do you think the unviable kits would need to be buffed to compete with the likes of Spider? Chicken'd have to be flapping around with 12 jumps, Wither should have 3 clones, and Sheep would have to have a battalion's worth of lasers and mines.
    I'm obviously half-joking, but you see the point? How is a new player supposed to learn ANYTHING if every kit is as insane as Spider? Obviously everything would have to have more mobility to combat it.

    And with Spider and free wins, I don't see how it taking skill to play optimally is any excuse. I don't think there should be a kit that becomes near impossible to beat without specific counters if played well enough, but SSM has more of those aswell (look at Wolf V Snowman, or Snowman V Chicken), and Spider's definitely not the worst in that aspect.

    Finally, Spider DJ XP. Chickens had to adapt to losing instant regen and making their kit trash forever. I don't think Spiders should be immune to such a nerf to their insanely good kit just because they can cry loud about it.
     
    Posted Jan 7, 2019
    Cabob, Eroil, neropatti and 4 others like this.
  19. @Rainbowtrol I agree with you, you can’t just buff every kit to be at the same level as spider without reworking entire kits (which isn’t possible because it’s Mineplex lol) Straight up buffing kit stats would either make them way too overpowered, or still not able to keep up with spider. The problem with spider is how it has tools that can deal with almost every situation while the play style of some kits restrict them from engaging/evading a spider easily.

    @AnIdiotInATree You mention how nerfing the top tier kits to be balanced would make the game lame; that’s purely subjective and should not be considered when balancing a game. I’ve been a long time player, and I would say having a balanced roster is better than having an entire roster full of overpowered kits.

    You also mention how GI has the mindset of just nerfing, that’s mostly incorrect. If you look at the most recent patch, they talked about how they made 5+ kits in a “better place”. That’s how creeper and blaze came to be. GI has the mindset of wanting things balanced, so giving nerfs to kits that are too strong, and giving buffs to those too weak.
     
    Posted Jan 7, 2019
    xOeuf, Cabob, neropatti and 2 others like this.

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