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I feel like Wolf and Creeper give the player an unfair advantage.

Discussion in 'Super Smash Mobs' started by Pizzazilla, Nov 4, 2018.

?

Do you think Wolf or Creeper needs a nerf?

  1. Both

    46.3%
  2. Just Creeper

    16.3%
  3. Just Wolf

    25.0%
  4. Neither

    12.5%
  1. Personally, I don’t have a problem with creepers. When I engage a creeper, I melee it until it uses explode, while he is charging up, I use my projectile move to guarantee a hit, then I continue to melee.

    Wolf on the other hand, like the spider is too mobile and aggressive. I think it also needs the energy bars for its directional jump. It’s passive move, ravage, is too strong, and makes the kit that much more unbalanced.
     
    Posted Jan 2, 2019
  2. Hi - Cub Tackle is pretty easy to dodge. Just use another projectile to kill it and then start pvping the wolf. But I agree that creeper is OP.
     
    Posted Feb 13, 2019
  3. Hello! I am not a very big player of super smash mobs but I can definitely tell that creeper might need some kind of nerf. In my opinion, the biggest problem is the shield the mod gains after being hit by any ability. I do feel like that "shield" is a bit too strong. The wolf is a good kit but I do not think it needs a nerf! It can be very powerful but any kit that is played well can be powerful. Please keep in mind that this is only my opinion!
    CaptainPigmans
     
    Posted Feb 14, 2019
  4. The issue with wolf is that it's pure damage with a small hitbox- as well as being incredibly mobile. It's cub strike is pretty much a guaranteed kill if you go aggressive right after due to it's damage stack ability.
     
    Posted Feb 14, 2019
    CCozy likes this.
  5. Aye,

    I do not necessarily want to repeat what has already been said but I agree with many of the issues addressed and ideas presented in this post. The powerful knockback Creeper is able to dish out is (in my opinion) the kit's main problem. Non-ranged kits may run into a lot of difficulties when fighting Creeper, either because their melee gets denied by Lightning Shield or because they are unable to reach a Creeper before getting knocked away by a well-timed Explode, a Sulfur Bomb or the dreaded Lightning Shield. Therefore, I sympathize with Jam's suggested solution and fixing approach.

    Wolf is a kit that can be very hard to deal with, especially for less experienced players. Being ensnared by Cub Tackle ranges from "No problem" to "Where did my 10 hearts go?". However, I think Wolf is less problematic than Creeper. Adding on to what Cubic said, many players simply do not know how to counter it and fail to develop a strategy. When it comes to mitigating the indignation about Wolf, I also agree with the idea of nerfing Ravage in a way, perhaps by decreasing the extra damage or by increasing the diminishment rate of the extra damage.

    On another note, that is not related to the topic itself:
    Hollow statements such as "Just delete kit x" or "If you play kit x you're bad anyway" etc. are essentially useless for a fruitful discussion. I just want to remind everyone that the goal of such posts is to gather opinions and ascertain solutions, not to express how detestable that stupid kit you always lose to is without giving input or presenting solutions <3
     
    Posted Feb 15, 2019
    Vocaloiid and SpitefulNick like this.
  6. I'd recommend you learn and play the game a bit more before answering. Wolf is overpowered, and most players know that. It's passive gives it a huge edge over others, +1 per every consecutive hit in fact. On top of that, it's quick double jump lets the wolf player hit repeatedly and quickly. Your argument is flawed, you're saying creeper is overpowered, but also say any kit that's played well can be powerful...? Creeper isn't by any means "overpowered". Sure, the knockback could use a slight nerf, but you have to remember it's only attacks are a projectile with a weak hitbox and Explosion (which takes time to charge up and can be avoided if you don't corner yourself). As for Lightning shield, here's a great summary by @Jam :

    Lightning Shield is basically creepers counterplay/protection against getting decimated by projectile to ability combos. It has trash armour and also having a lacking ranged moveset with the inability to deal with many longer ranged foes makes creeper extremely glass cannon. Lightning Shield helps break up that medium by preventing these opponents from shredding creeper at closer ranges and provides a sort of "neutral" stage for creeper where you can get closer to opponents and they are forced to back away or keep distance. Creepers playstyle heavily involves counter attack and also keeping your opponents at fixed distances where you have the greater advantage. Of course certain kits nullify that completely with there speed or projectiles which again is why LS is so good because it blockades that.
    LS is also good for breaking combo effective kits that heavily rely on combos. Wolf, Guardian, sHorse, Iron Golem, Snowman can't do any of there high damage high reward combos on creeper, which results in a completely different neutral exchange. LS makes creeper not only a fantastic counterpick kit but also has the unique position to basically wall out any of the kits mentioned above that try to over damage wipe creeper.
    Basically, LS is nessesary in its current state because it does it's job of providing creeper with coverage against any kit that tries to attack it with an ability to melee combo (preventing that high damage dealt to 4 armour) and also gives creeper a better neutral exchange and a little bit more control over how he deals with certain opponents and their movesets.
     
    Posted Feb 15, 2019,
    Last edited Feb 15, 2019
    Kenshin_William, Mitchy and hellcqt like this.
  7. Hello, I simply wanted to respond to a message that was quoting mine!
    I am aware that the hitbox of wolf kit is smaller than most kits, however, we cannot really change it. I also do not think it is the most mobile kit since double jumping is a little bit harder to control (at least for me). The wolf kit has a lot of damage but I do not think it is a big problem since it is still hard to hit some of the abilities that the wolf kit has!
    Please keep in mind that this is only my opinion!
    CaptainPigmans
     
    Posted Feb 15, 2019
  8. Oh boy.

    Why do you think Lightning Shield is problematic? And wolf definitely needs a nerf. Like badly.

    Wolf is leagues above creeper. Superior damage, mobility, literally everything.

    What does this mean. :(

    Just because you can’t use it’s mobility to it’s fullest potential doesn’t mean it’s not mobile; you even acknowledged that. Wolf has a lot of damage and it IS a problem. Cub Tackle is easy to hit when in close combat, which is where Wolf should be during combat. And Wolf Strike, probably the stupidest ability imo. High mobility, free 7 damage ability and you can’t really do anything. Combine that with a melee hit you can do 12-15 in less than a second.
     
    Posted Feb 15, 2019,
    Last edited Feb 16, 2019
  9. I mean, sulfur has one of the smallest hitboxes of a projectile other than arrows, correct?
     
    Posted Feb 16, 2019
    Kenshin_William likes this.
  10. it's still easy to hit with insane kb and a fast recharge rate though.
     
    Posted Feb 16, 2019
  11. Creeper needs to be changed but not nerfed. They need to reduce the insane KB on the sulfur bomb but give it better armor in exchange to help to fight ranged kits more effectively but at the same time give melee kits an easier time to approach it. Wolf needs a nerf. The ravage is insane and one cub tackle can lead to instant death. It has the speed of a spider with a smaller hitbox and a better projectile bascially making spider obsolete. I can sometimes beat it with snowman but with any other kit I'll get destroyed by any wolf main with over 2000 wins.

    Another kit that still needs a nerf is enderman. The kit has a glitchy hit box that allows arrows to bounce off and melee hits to miss allowing it to get in quick and combo with I believe a 7.0 attack. It also has a high damage ability in block toss and blink is solid for approaching, escaping and recovering. It is not quite as powerful as wolf but I find it more annoying than creeper, especially as a zombie and snowman main.
     
    Posted Feb 17, 2019
    SpitefulNick likes this.
  12. Yeah, wolf is powerful and can be annoying to deal with, but it definitely doesn't "make spider obsolete", spider is still the better kit overall, yeah bigger hitbox, but also better armor, better spacing and combo tool in needler, a wide range trapping ability, and the best recovery in the game. It also doesn't really have any negative matchups. It's at the top of the tier for reason, after all.
     
    Posted Feb 18, 2019
  13. Sulphur bomb needs a nerf, like... Now...
    Less kb, Less damage, MUCH MORE OF A C/D
    Wolf should get it's double jump ability (in a straght direction) removed, that way people can run away easier if they are getting in a combat fight with a dog, which is when it becomes broken. So that the wolf keeps the normal double jump but not in one direction.
     
    Posted Feb 18, 2019
  14. I disagree about spider having no bad matchups and while I think it is one of the best kits I think enderman and wolf are stronger. Spider struggles against both enderman and wolf along with snowman

    Enderman is super glitchy which allows it to inflict heavy amounts of damage when the spiders hits fail to register. They also have the option of blinking away and landing more block tosses. And one block toss can cancel a spiders recovery. I hardly use enderman but when I do I have massive success even with such little experience using the kit.

    Spider vs a solid wolf is a bad matchup for spider. Spider may have better armor, needler, and recovery. Cub tackle is easier to hit than spin web as it is foreword, direct, and doesn't spray randomly. I can hit spin web pretty well but sometimes it can miss just because the webs don't always shoot out the way you want them to. Along with cub tackle, the ravage ability allows it to shred kits in less than a second. As it's hitbox is smaller, it can get much larger combos on spider and a spider main has to rely on trying to spin web a fast moving wolf or land a needler combo. Also cub tackle cancels the wall climb ability.

    Spider vs snowman is a terrible matchup for spider imo. I mostly main snowman these days and spider is usually beatable but a little more annoying on big maps. Snowman can out last spiders spin webs by carefully timing blizzard. It can take advantage of spiders hit box to hit a blizzard melee combo that deals massive damage. If spider runs I'll just do what I call a "blizzard tap" where I tap one blizzard when they are at the start of their double jump and it stuns them and slows them down and follow with another blizzard when they are about to hit the ground. Spider will have no choice but to melee as it has no viable long range options and with snowman's powerful combo tool it will destroy spider even those with 5000+ wins when used right.
     
    Posted Feb 18, 2019
    SpitefulNick likes this.
  15. I'm going to have to disagree here.
    Yes creeper is a bit ahead of the competition in comparison with other kits, no wolf is no where close to being ahead. In reality it all depends on who's playing the kits, however I cannot deny that creeper is strong. Both with its regen time as well as sulphur bomb. Oh, don't even get me started on the sulpur bomb honestly, one thing I would like to put out there is that the cooldown for sulphur bomb is really low, like insanely low. So I don't fully disagree with you, yes creeper is a bit stronger than other kits; I suggest that sulphur bomb's cooldown and regen time is upped. However, wolf is fine currently in my opinion. When you get pinned down by wolf cub, you can use that lack of knockback to your ability and do a lot of damage to the wolf. There is a lot of ways to counter a wolf and creeper, but it's all up to the amount of skill and effort each player puts.
     
    Posted Feb 22, 2019
  16. Old thread here. Regardless, let's get straight to the point.

    I agree with you, to a very minor extent. Creeper and wolf are marginally ahead of the competition, weirdly you failed to mention that Spider and Zombie are in fact the two most unbalanced kits.

    It's quite self-explanatory if you play the game regularly, against opponents with a variety of skill levels, but I'll quickly go through the SSMGI consensus. Spider and Zombie are were placed at the top tier in the most recent SSMGI tier list that I can remember. Thread: https://xen.mineplex.com/threads/official-super-smash-mobs-tierlist-match-up-thread.23317/ . As you can see, Spider and Zombie are the only mobs at the top tier. Creeper is lounging down in the third tier. Matchup tier list? Move Creeper and Wolf down a place each again. Spider is the only kit at the top of that chart, and rightfully so.

    Wolf packs one heck of a punch in melee combat, that much is true. It's very predictable though. Wolf's only outlet for dealing damage is to get into close quarters. So either use ranged attacks or Creeper (both lightning shield and explode can help you here). If you can out-pvp a wolf user that's a gg right there.

    Creeper has the unpredictability factor to it. All of its abilities are good. Great regen. What's the catch? Oh yeah, a good Zombie will 4-stock you by not letting you anywhere near it. Creeper's regen is no match for a few deadly arrows coming your way from an accurate Zombie. It even has spew bile to create distance between you.
    Creeper can abuse its unpredictability to win some tough matchups since there are so many styles of play you can use with it (many avenues to dish out damage or KB). However, Zombie is still a hard counter to all of it.

    Let's start the SSM balancing process with a Spider nerf, shall we? A kit with absolutely no hard counters, a few minor counters at best.

    Did I mention Spider can travel the diameter of small, or even medium-sized maps within seconds?
     
    Posted Feb 22, 2019
    SpitefulNick likes this.
  17. I mostly agree with this (especially zombie), but I feel like a lot of people exaggerate how good spider is- sure it can be decent, but it is also the hardest to use imo of all the top tier kits. Although that could be just because I play casually, I feel like wolf and spider is the difference between old sg knight and frosting- both give a significant 1v1 advantage, but knight was insanely user friendly; while frosting takes somewhat more skill to use (albeit, not much but still way harder than knight). Also would like to say that from my experience both skeleton and zombie play pretty well against spider.
     
    Posted Feb 22, 2019
  18. You're right, but if a skilled player picks up Spider there's no stopping it unless you've reached a near peak level of Skele/Zombie. A skilled player that picks up any kit will be a tough fight but you can often outmatch them with the perfect kit for the job.

    That's what sets Spider apart for me - it doesn't have a single kit that acts as a hard counter. Ranged kits, as you said can have a decent matchup against Spider, best case scenario.
     
    Posted Feb 22, 2019
  19. Creeper is NOT better than Wolf. Wolf is definitely leagues ahead and the only reason why Creeper is “meta” is because no one wants to learn how to counter it. You can easily abuse its low armor. Though, the only problem really, is the knockback. Nerf that and Creeper will be fine.

    You say that you can use the no knockback to your advantage when fighting wolf, that’s correct if the wolf is bad. But a good wolf can easy drain your health from 10 to 0. Mind you, you are completely at the mercy of the wolf who can still move while you’re stuck waiting to die.

    Eh, the matchup tier list isn’t the most accurate. Wolf is still way better than creeper. Also cow is placed too low.
     
    Posted Feb 22, 2019
    SpitefulNick likes this.
  20. As a blaze/guardian main I do not see any reason to nerf either of mobs as when i am playing creeper with the blaze i just spam it with infernos until it dies, simple. When i play wolf with blaze I just use my firefly when he gets me with cub tackle to keep him away and then jump out. I have played many wolves with guardian and killed almost every one. When they hit me with cub tackle, immediately after I hit the ground I target laser them and when they try to melee me I just wreck them. But there is a problem facing a creeper with guardian: The guardian needs to use a combo of whirlpool ax, target laser, and melee to kill most mobs. But the lightning shield stops me from using whirlpool ax and then meleeing. plus, if my target laser breaks that also turns on lightning shield. But I am still confident that most ranged mobs can kill
     
    Posted Mar 8, 2019

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