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How to Fight a Creeper

Discussion in 'Super Smash Mobs' started by Diemolis, Jul 8, 2020.

  1. There are many ways that you new or inexperience players can fight the creeper kit.

    First, creeper has little armor so you can typically just kill it with melee.

    Sometimes you have a ranged ability or an Area of Effect (AoE) ability. When fighting creeper with access to those non-melee options you often have two situations: 1. fight using only melee 2. fight using ranged and melee.
    Situation 1 is super obvious: you click fast and do damage.
    Situation 2: you can get the most out of your ranged abilities (hit ranged abilities several times before engaging melee). You can also range, then immediately melee. Since lightning shield does not that much damage and not that much kb its kind of fine to attack it when shielded a few times over the course of a fight, in exchange for initiative (obviously you don't want to trigger it more than a few times in a short amount of time). So to be efficient, don't do something stupid like using spider's needler, then immediately jumping into an attack.

    creeper's explode is sort of bad because it requires creeper to stay in once place. so use that opportunity to deal damage. if you have range, fire it into creeper while its exploding. if you think its worth it, even try dealing melee damage when creeper is exploding (i do this when i know creeper is at low health).

    creeper's explode sucks as a recovery. when used over open air or void, typically a projectile will cause lots of knock back. furthermore, most projectiles cancel and cause their own knock back. so if for instance a creeper falls of a ledge but explodes to get back up, I can use skeleton archery for instance to knock creeper into the void while its exploding.

    If you keep losing to creeper, there are two reasons:
    1. you are quite terrible at the game
    2. you are playing against a good player
    3. you got unlucky, or experienced an unfair disadvantage

    of the options above, 3 and 2 are out of your control. there is nothing you can do about those. luck swings in your favor and out of it- so don't obsess over it. You can't make your opponent "worse" in most cases. Furthermore, if there is a pattern- say, you losing games repeatedly to creeper, its likely not luck. your pc might suck, and that would influence things, but lets look at what you can control: your skill. The most likely reason you cant win against creeper is because you are not good at the game. So to get good at the game you need to play the game a good bit. I would suggest 50 hours for competency but everyone is different. If you're having moments where it feels like you know what to do but just aren't doing it, that's a skill issue- but it means you are improving to the point where you will be able to execute your plans instead of imagining them happening.

    It probably doesn't land well to hear that you are just not good at the game but its the truth. Any good player will tell you creeper is on the weaker side of kits and sort of easy to beat. To overcome the de facto bonuses creeper gives a bad player, all you need to do is become a better player yourself, then you will find yourself generally able to deal with creepers.

    So the real trick to beating creeper is to put a few hours into improvement.
     
    Posted Jul 8, 2020
    Kenshin_William likes this.
  2. Okay, but the problem with creeper is that it takes little skill or effort to use. You recommend a few hours of practice in order to get enough "competence" to beat creeper, but then the creepers don't even need that much time to get good at their kit.

    And then your thing about meleeing a creeper to death should work, but then it doesn't on account of sulfur bomb. Most creepers that I've seen don't just stand still so you can melee them, they run away and spam sulfur. Even if you did get close enough to melee, sulfur will already be recharged so it can just hit you and then send you across the map again. OR someone else can activate the LS when you're about to hit the creeper.

    And the problem with sulfur bomb is that it does too much damage and kb for an attack with such a short cooldown- 3 seconds. And I swear that it doesn't even have to hit me for it to be able to do damage. It's even worse than LS. Also you shouldn't act like the main reason for not being able to kill a creeper is because people aren't good enough. Creeper is an A tier kit so it's already p good. Many players struggle against creepers, even average and above average players. It's not like creeper is some trash like chicken. I think that anyone with a couple hundred wins with creeper can do pretty good at it. Also, you don't have to lose to a creeper to realise that it's annoying. I can beat most of them, except for the ones with thousands of wins. But the lower level ones can also be exceptionally strong with creeper too just because it really isn't that hard to learn and get good results from.
     
    Posted Jul 8, 2020
    Pizzazilla and Mitchy like this.
  3. 1. I play since 2015.
    2. They just run away or some random player used an ability on the creeper.
    3. What
     
    Posted Jul 9, 2020,
    Last edited Jul 10, 2020
    xOeuf likes this.
  4. I feel like you don't have a good perception of creeper's matchups. The kits I can think of that creeper does well against are gaurdian (shuts down kit completely), IG, cow (sometimes) and maybe squid or the terribleness that is sheep. It might do well against pig as well though I'm not too sure about that.. and thats sort of it.

    Creeper dies **easily** against spider, wolf, zombie, skeleton, enderman, chicken, slime, skelly horse, blaze, magma, probably wither skeleton, squid*
    and has a fair match against witch though I'd say witch is decently favored

    Its not a good point to suggest the game should be balanced for players with zero hours in game. I'm sure you've heard of "skill cap" or "learning curve" and these things describe how good you can be/ how difficult to learn something is respectively. Maybe I can use my own term here, "skill floor." when I use that term I'm talking about attributes a thing has which are intrinsic to it. In the specific sense, I would argue creeper has high skill floor. So what? Lots of silly things are easy to understand, but what is valuable is often difficult to master. It shouldn't be a problem that creeper has a high skill floor because overcoming that floor just isn't that time intensive. If you have background in any kind of FPS all you need to do is use your brain.

    There's also a thing called a self fulfilling prophecy that could be at play. Studies have near universally shown that believing an outcome will happen has an impact on that outcome in psychological cases (ex: student believes they will pass a test, and they are thus more likely to pass the test, OR student believes they will fail a test, and is thus more likely to fail a test). My humble opinion on this is that humans do better at things when they are confident in themselves, although I'm sure there is better reasoning in the literature. My only point is, maybe if you assess your battle objectively, realize what is necessary for victory, and Don't fall into the trap of believing yourself to be against the odds of victory from the outset, then you will have a better battle against your dreaded green foe.
     
    OP OP
    OP OP Posted Jul 9, 2020
    aaawesome likes this.
  5. Okay well you should've brought up matchups in the first post since you're supposed to be telling people how to kill these things. But you made your strategy for killing them sound like it should work for every kit that someone uses against a creeper, so why would I think you care about matchups? But anyways, a low level creeper could fight a skeleton with the same level, and the creeper would most likely win because creeper just takes less effort to get good results. Skelly takes a little more sweat than creeper, so it would take longer and be harder to learn. However, after a certain point, the skeleton would probably start to beat the same creeper, so I can see what you are saying. But by assuming that I know nothing of the matchups, you are ignoring the fact that sulfur bomb's cd is way out of proportion with the damage and kb that it does.

    Yeah well I guess it's a good thing that wasn't one of my points then

    Creeper has a very basic playstyle, just run and spam sulfur, use explode to get away/not fall down. Even the high level ones do this. What high skill floor?

    Yes I constantly tell myself that I can kill them

    Based off of your previous posts I can assume that you are a creeper yourself, or you are a player that is just too good to know the average player's struggle of fighting a creeper.
     
    Posted Jul 9, 2020,
    Last edited Jul 9, 2020
  6. What? I mean I can see this making sense in strength training, where you would need to push yourself further physically. But in SSM, what? People feel unconfident because of experience with these kits, not because they have low self-esteem. The cure to this isn't some philosophical journey into the mind; It's making adjustments that fit the kit better into the game.

    The lightning shield makes getting projectile and melee combos impossible, sulfur's ratio to knock-back to cooldown time is absolutely insane, while it has pretty bad armor, creeper has great regen and running capabilities. A solution to this for me would be to decreases the projectile knockback because I think single projectile attacks should recharge quickly. Another thing would just be making the creeper's regen average and then increasing the armor a bit.

    When you say "melee the kit if it's so hard to kill", and then in a later reply state that most of its counters are ranged, it makes it seem like you don't know what you're talking about. Like _NameTag_ said, creepers are not going to stand still for you to attack them. They will either run, melee back, use explode, or melee back, but have the added advantage of being able to use projectiles since you can't melee them after using a projectile. I saw this hilarious video a few years ago on the forums where someone was "trying to show how to counter creeper" and it was just a video of an afk creeper and the meleed it. This is exactly the type of thought process I think you're projecting. Creepers are not going to sit still for some magma to wander up to it and get 6 melee hits.

    Skilled players are consistently able to beat less skilled creepers, but saying "get better" isn't really a fair argument. Many of the players are average at the game, because you know, that's what average means. Creeper is extremely easy to use and if one player spends an equal amount of time practicing with creeper as someone practicing with magma or snow golem, or most other kits, the person who used creeper would almost always come out on top, even if the two players had equal skill level. This is because creeper is far easier to learn, and once you can even slightly aim sulpher bomb you can dominate most average matches.
     
    Posted Jul 9, 2020
    _NameTag_ likes this.
  7. To respond to paragraph 1: I think you just need to dig deeper into self-fufilling prophecy to see my view. General case: positive or negative feedback loop. Specific example: A predictable loss against a creeper in ssm leads to the compounding variable stacked against your favor in the for of expectations. i.e. all things being equal you are better walking in blind than having the negative experience since your mind has recorded prior events. Note that this is not philosophical nonsense, it is very concrete. Now that point really isn't the cornerstone of my argument but its still something I'd wager heavily is a factor in all this.

    To restate the case, creeper has low armor, a move in explosion that can be exploited easily, and a decent sulfur bomb that really doesn't break the game. Lightning shield is only an issue if you aren't thinking about what is happening. Its literally triggered by projectiles- so find a way to either use only projectiles or strictly melee- or, since triggering it is not a big deal combine melee and range.

    Now contrary to what you may believe, most kits have a ranged ability (at least 1). And even more have some form of AoE. I can promise you that skeleton horse, even lacking in range, is very equipped to deal with creeper due to AoE that can among other things keep push creeper to void.

    SSM balance shouldn't revolve around the players who won't put any time into the game.

    On a personal note, I would not regard myself as particularly talented in any mechanical sense, but even I was able to pick up on the basics of SSM with decent speed. If I can do it I extend the benefit of the doubt to most everyone else.
     
    OP OP
    OP OP Posted Jul 9, 2020
  8. OK so then please explain why creepers barely have to put in any time to be good at creeper
     
    Posted Jul 9, 2020
  9. Yeah, I understand the point you're making. These things tend to apply on tests because a test requires a mindset, just like physical activity, or even just conversing with people. This is a bit different. No matter how amazing your mindset going into that test may be, if they give you an unfair question, you're not going to be able to figure it out. I think that's the problem with your argument. Creeper is kind of like that unfair question. Obviously you can adapt to it but that doesn't make it any less unfair... If you get what I'm saying. I think it is completely fair for players to have to change their playstyle based on what kit they are going against. I think it is also unfair that in most matchups, creeper doesn't actually have to change their playing style that much (unless its a heavily ranged kit like a zombie, skeleton, and sheep. Which is why these are considered counters). The fact that creeper counters with little practice, maybe a week's worth, most kits in the game, and only has so few compared, is what makes it feel unfair to me.

    An explosion can be easily exploited. I agree with that. It does fairly low damage as long as you're paying attention and doesn't do that much knockback for something named explode. Saying a decent sulpher bomb doesn't break the game is true. But there's not going to be one sulpher bomb per game. There are going to be many and many of these will do a really large amount of knockback. Three seconds is going to whizz by in a 7-minute game and you will feel like you are constantly getting pelted with high knockback projectiles. Everyone knows how lightning shield is triggered. The problem is the fact that if you choose to use melee to counter this, they will use both melee and projectiles. If you use projectiles only, you will either be running from them which is not good considering they will most definitely be using sulfer bomb every three seconds and your back will be turned for a good amount of time.

    No one is saying to change the fundamentals of the creeper kit due to the players who maybe explore different games once a month. I play almost four days a week or more and I still get frustrated at creepers even if I can beat them. What I was saying is that people can pick up and learn to use creeper faster than most other kits, because like you said, you can pick up on the basics of SSM pretty easily, and since sulfur bomb, in my opinion, is broken, new players will be able to use and abuse the ability quite easily no matter what skill level they are currently at.
     
    Posted Jul 9, 2020
  10. You run and hope it dies of hunger.
     
    Posted Jul 9, 2020
    Mitchy, Jrawt and aaawesome like this.
  11. Just add ocelots lol, easiest way to counter creeper
     
    Posted Jul 11, 2020
    aaawesome, Diemolis, xOeuf and 3 others like this.
  12. use the more melee based classes like golem/enderman/cow.

    I especially recommend endy, because the blink can be used to approach the running creeper/ recover after sulfur bomb somehow knocks you 20 blocks away/ avoid taking 12 dmg from explode.

    also, block toss gives you a second option: spam abils with the creeper. when the creeper falls in to the void and tries to explode to recover, you can block toss it to knock it back down.
     
    Posted Jul 11, 2020
    aaawesome and xOeuf like this.
  13. cope
     
    Posted Jul 11, 2020

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