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Future Frosting nerf too much?

Discussion in 'Cake Wars' started by anthxny, Feb 19, 2020.

  1. Alright so lots of posts have gone by and I don’t feel like quoting each one, so I’ll just talk about what many of these posts are discussing.
    The only achievement you need to rely on others for is floor is lava, otherwise you can get them on your own.
    Let me go back to what I said when I started this thread. As a heavy frosting user myself, even I’ll admit that the snowballs are overpowered. Frosting is an achievement kit, so it deserves to be strong, but right now it’s too strong. I didn’t say the future frosting nerfs were not needed, I said they were too much, meaning something in between what frosting is now and what it would be without the slowness. I mentioned reducing the effect and duration of the slowness, which would honestly balance it out. Or like others have said, increasing the quantity of the snowballs if the slowness effect were removed completely. I can’t deny that frosting is overpowered at the moment, but the planned nerfs are too much. Again, I feel that reducing the effect and duration of the slowness instead of removing it completely, or remove the slowness but increasing the quantity of snowballs would balance the kit while still keeping it strong.
    OP OP
    OP OP Posted Feb 21, 2020
  2. Also I saw people saying that by removing the slowness but increasing the quantity of snowballs it isn’t really a ‘nerf’. It’s more of a rebalance, the slowness is what makes snowballs overpowered is it not? By removing it, but increasing the amount of snowballs, they wouldn’t be so overpowered but the frosting player will be able to use them more freely, which, given the slowness is totally removed, would be fine since the snowballs themselves aren’t overpowered. Or as I mentioned several times, reducing the effectiveness of the slow and how long it lasts on the affected player while leaving the quantity as it is could balance out the kit.
    OP OP
    OP OP Posted Feb 21, 2020
    Fallen likes this.
  3. Nope. Frosting is an achievement kit, so it deserves to be fun, rewarding and unique.

    Kits in general do not work if one is clearly superior, they work when each kit offers a different playstyle. The concept of the Cake Wars kits has that: 1 long range kit - Archer, 1 close range kit - Warrior, 1 mid range kit - Frosting, and 1 utility kit - Builder. Frosting isn't really mid range but you get what I mean.

    But there is a clear hierarchy: There's Frosting, then a way down is Builder, then there's a colossal gulf between Builder, and Archer and Warrior. This is not what we want. We want the achievement kit to offer a unique playstyle which is rewarding, but not rewarding as in you get free combos.

    So, our aim - to make the game balanced - is to buff Warrior and Archer to Builder level, and nerf Frosting so it's on par with Builder. Last time I checked Warrior and Archer had planned buffs, so we can forget about them temporarily. But you're suggesting nerfing Frosting in one way, but buffing it in another. We can't do this. We need to nerf Frosting, so also buffing it defeats the entire purpose.

    This would balance out the kit relative to the average kit across every minigame. But the kits Frosting is fighting against (Warrior and Archer) are not the average kit, they're below average. One average kit (Frosting) versus a below-average kit (Warrior or Archer) still isn't fair. Builder would also lose to Frosting in pvp, but since it was a kit not designed for pvp, that is to be expected, so I can't say Frosting should also be nerfed because it beats Builder. And remember that just because a kit is an Achievement kit, doesn't mean it is objectively better. It should always beat some kits (Builder), win some fights (Warrior), and always lose to another kit (Archer).

    Think of Cake Wars like a game of Rock, Paper, Scissors. Archer is rock, Warrior is Paper, and Frosting is Scissors. You're saying that because Frosting is an achievement kit, it should be stronger than everything else. That's like saying scissors should not only beat paper, but also rock. This isn't fair, and breaks the game, as I am sure you can see.

    A fair game would have scissors beat paper, and rock beat scissors. A fair game would have Frosting lose to some kits and win against others.

    Just because you like scissors doesn't mean it should win against both paper and rock. Just because you like Frosting and it's an achievement kit doesn't mean it should win against both Warrior and Archer.
    Posted Feb 22, 2020
    chrvssy likes this.
  4. Never said frosting should be far superior to the other kits, I only said it deserves to be strong. And yes, archer and warrior do need a buff. Where I disagree with you is when you talk about the frosting nerf. I’m suggesting either nerfing it a bit less than planned (reducing slowness) or to increase the amount of snowballs if the slowness is removed. It seems like it would be OP right now, but keep in mind that’s IF the slowness is removed, in which case having more snowballs wouldn’t be overpowered. It would allow frosting users to use their snowballs more freely but the snowballs still wouldn’t be overpowered without their slowness.

    I see what you’re saying as far as kits countering each other go, but it doesn’t really work that way in cake wars. Also, cake wars is not, and most certainly should not, be anything like a game of Rock Paper Scissors. Rock Paper Scissors is a game almost entirely of luck, (and a little bit being able to predict your opponent but still mostly luck) and cakewars is a game of skill and strategy. In terms of kits, this statement is a little more valid, but it still doesn’t really work that way. It’s not just one kit beats another and that’s that. Each kit gives an advantage in a certain situation, archer can attack from range, builder can rush faster and platform suffocate, frosting is good for starting combos, Warrior is good for fighting multiple people, you get the idea.
    OP OP
    OP OP Posted Feb 22, 2020
  5. i hope they wont turn frosting to another "sheep" in ssm
    Posted Mar 13, 2020
    yulufi / Sean likes this.
  6. Not sure if anyone mentioned this but I wanted to add that it seems like frosting reduces your range for hitting players. I'm not all sure if this is true (and I attribute it to the slowness).
    Posted Mar 15, 2020
  7. It doesn't reduce your range, and as far as I know, no plugin can. It's just that the slowness also makes your FoV (field of view) smaller, which makes distances warped. Also, if someone's attacking you and they're repeatedly pressure w then you can't hit them, no matter if you're snowball or not.
    Posted Mar 15, 2020
  8. the Slowness kills your momentum so the other person will pretty much always get that first hit if both players are aiming right. It's like the same thing as trying to hit while shifting.

    As for the OP, I stick by my earlier comment. Nerf is fine, let the kit be balanced.
    Posted Mar 15, 2020,
    Last edited Mar 15, 2020
    asfhjjsnx782$e and Im_Ken like this.
  9. Since when did game balancing cater to your feelings.

    No, that’s not the purpose of an achievement kit. The purpose is to give unique gameplay for users that have completed all the achievements. In no way is it fair for an already experienced players to have a bigger advantage.

    Games are balanced to be balanced, not so that you’ll feel a certain way.
    Posted Mar 15, 2020
    KerbalBoy, Im_Ken and Korben like this.
  10. Honestly, the first question, isn’t it self-explanatory? Seeming you are part of GI, you should know that a nerf can’t be put in place, if the community isn’t happy with it.

    The second part, I’ve changed my opinion and I know that’s not actually the purpose of an achievement kit, so in future I would be grateful if you stopped quoting me on the same point I previously stated.
    Posted Mar 16, 2020
  11. Majority of GI agrees with the nerf, along with most of the community. Even if that wasn’t the case, I don’t see it fair to reject a nerf just because you (in general) don’t like it, without providing reasons that are relevant to game balancing.
    Posted Mar 16, 2020
  12. Slowness should be removed, yes. Not only do the snowballs act as a rod they also give slowness. Those achievements aren't even something that is extremely hard. In a week or less of grinding you could have the kit in your hands and you will get a lot of kills from just knocking back people and slowing them at the same time...
    Posted Mar 22, 2020
  13. Part 1: I definitely think slowness should be removed. Doesn’t require much skill to look at someone, kill their momentum by clicking and then hot keying to where your weapon is. I’d vouch for maybe more max snowball with slowness removed so it could be used as a combo starter/breaker.
    Part 2: I think kits should affect gameplay but also require skill to use. Right now with froster, doesn’t really take much skill. Now with builder, there’s no combat advantage so it takes actual pvp skill and the kit can be used strategically. Another good example of this would be the shocking hider kit in block hunt (only other game I’m really familiar with lol), it’s not overpowered and requires pvp skill to use properly. Kits should aid the player in a certain aspect of the game but they shouldn’t make it near impossible for the opposing team/players to win; it should be balanced.
    Posted Mar 26, 2020
    brandon3074 likes this.
  14. Couldn't agree with you more. Kits should be used to aid the player and not just make it more challenging and frustrating for the opposing player.

    Frosting is incredibly frustrating for newbies who are getting used to cake wars and already aren't too good at pvp. Frosting makes it impossible for a newbie to win at pvp. They are already at a disadvantage due to the skill gap and frosting only servers to exacerbate the disadvantage.
    Posted Mar 27, 2020
  15. I do agree that if the slowness were removed entirely increasing the quantity of snowballs is good too.

    But frosting definitely takes skill. It’s not as simple as “looking at someone and clicking”. That would be like saying pvp takes no skill because you’re just looking at someone and clicking, which obviously isn’t true. The most simple use of snowballs is to engage with them, and if you only to that you’d probably only hit 1 snowball per fight unless you or your opponent disengages. Where it takes skill is when you use them mid fight, as it requires you to switch to your snowball, time it, aim it, throw it, and switch back to your weapon all within fractions of a second. If you mess up even one of those it may cost you the fight. You might accidentally punch someone with the snowball instead of your sword, block your sword instead of throwing the snowball, miss the snowball, throw a snowball when you should have swung with your sword, etc. I can go on at length about why frosting does take skill to use effectively.
    OP OP
    OP OP Posted Mar 27, 2020
    brandon3074 likes this.
  16. You're correct, it takes skill to use it effectively. But it does not take skill to use it. Most pvp situations I find myself in, I am hit with a snowball before the fighting even starts and then they straight line me due to slowness. If someone has the skill to use frosting effectively then they can essentially win every single 1v1, which isn't fair.

    Slowness before a pvp is insane to me. Once a player uses frosting, they can immediately get a combo. The only way for the other play to not die is to just forfeit the pvp and run away. As of now, frosting is overpowered and needs a nerf.
    Posted Mar 28, 2020
    KerbalBoy likes this.

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