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Frosting Class Balance Issues

Discussion in 'Cake Wars' started by Necco, Mar 1, 2019.

?

Do you agree that Frosting either the unfun or overpowered?

  1. Yes I agree that it is overpowerd.

    40.0%
  2. Yes I agree that it is unfun

    25.6%
  3. Yes I agree that it is both overpowered and unfun

    26.7%
  4. No I do not think it is unfun, nor is it overpowered.

    31.1%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. Eh, that wasn’t his point. His point was that Warrior has no in-combat advantages compared to other kits. You only get the advantage after a fight is over.
     
    Posted Mar 9, 2019
    Fall likes this.
  2. I'm not talking about luck. When you dodge you're not supposed to be reacting to the snowball, you're supposed to guess where they are going to throw it and move to avoid that. I'm not even that good and I can dodge about half of the time unless it's point blank, but like I said before if they are that close you can combo yourself out of it.
     
    Posted Mar 9, 2019
  3. It looks like you've got a good discussion going! I'm not going to respond to absolutely everything, but I do have two things I want to bring up.

    Firstly, we voted on this on our official discord server. With 390 total votes, we agreed that The kit is balanced and does not require any changes by a number of 220 to 170. Evidence
    Sure this was from November, but Frosting has not changed since then so this poll is still valid.

    I also voted that I think the kit is balanced and here's why. I believe the max number of snowballs someone can have is 4 at a time. Most players that I've encountered with Frosting attempt to use all four snowballs if the first couple don't hit you. Dodging/strafing 4 snowballs in a row is completely doable and easy to nail if you practice just a bit. Even if you get hit with a snowball, it's not impossible to get out of the combo.

    About them being used to hit you off narrow bridges - this argument is not relevant to the Builder kit. If this is your main concern about Frosting, you can just choose a kit that combats the bridge issue.

    Lastly, Voca mentioned there might already be a nerf in mind. I'm not convinced this is necessary, but you can hope for that if my message didn't persuade you.
     
    Posted Mar 9, 2019
    Slipest, Phamtastic, james610 and 4 others like this.
  4. Although I did not explicitly state it, my general opinion is that if all the kits in a game are just as bad and "unfun" as one particularly disliked one, then perhaps that game needs a major overhaul so that people find it more fun. I wouldn't play a game where there were numerous kits, all of which were equally unpleasant, with the unpleasant part being the defining part of their nature. Bit off topic, but whatever.

    Seeing as humorous responses are apparently not obvious enough, I'll get to my point. I do not understand why people complain about Builder suffocation and place it on the same level as Frosting snowballs. One is considerably easier to avoid than the other. I'm not sure why you're saying five platforms is harder to deal with than one, if you're falling for it more than once, then that's your fault. There's a nice saying about the "fool me once, fool me twice" sort of thing, I can't imagine what it would say for being fooled five times.

    People like to say something along the lines of "Warrior has a health perk that's OP" and conveniently forget that it's the only kit that hinges on you not only hitting someone with a weapon, but actually killing them. I don't see your point when you say, "Arguments revolving around x other kit are somewhat useless..." because hitting someone with a snowball is infinitely easier than killing them. As @leo_thya helpfully said, it's a kit that only becomes useful after a kill in a fight. I'll just assume you don't have a real argument there and move on.
    I was noting that your writing in the sentence prior to the phrase you've helpfully underlined and drawn an arrow toward contradicts your arguments. It is literally what you said, although certainly not what you intended to say.

    No offense, but I advise thinking more about your arguments before responding to someone. :D
     
    Posted Mar 9, 2019
  5. I did not read the thread.

    I just wanted to clarify that. I kinda skimmed over, and I do think frosting should be nerfed. That opinion is based on prior conversations.

    However, here's the reason I did not read through: the poll is biased.

    You allow multiple votes, and then have 3 options for one side, and 1 option for the other side. Theoretically, even if the matter was a 50/50 split, the vote could be 3/4 for nerfing frosting.

    If I haven't misunderstood the system greatly, please fix the poll.
     
    Posted Mar 9, 2019
    PapiKirito and Daamiaan/DamiUwU like this.
  6. After reading over everyone’s statements I also think that the Frosting Kit is okay for java edition. I don’t think a nerf is needed. Now before you say oh well your biased. I before I even joined forums thought that the Froster Kit was OP. But you have to remember that it is an Achievement Kit that people had to grind and work for. If it has a bit of an advantage that’s okay in my opinion because it is not just a normal Kit. Hey developers if your reading this you should add Frosting Achievement Kit to bedrock lol. Thanks for reading


    oh btw I don’t have froster either so don’t think I’m voting for no because i have it and like it

    -NothinButNet36
     
    Posted Mar 9, 2019
  7. From what I understand from the poll, people that thought the kit was unfun, but still balanced would pick the second option. The first and third options are arguably the same thing and the last option is for people that don't think it needs a nerf. I wouldn't say the poll is biased, but more of seeing opinions more than just whether someone thought the kit was overpowered or not (like the second option).
     
    Posted Mar 10, 2019
  8. Even if it's not intentionally biased, the results can/are skewed by how the poll is constructed. People who agree with OP have 3x as much potential "voting power" than people who disagree.

    Measuring how many people do abuse this "voting power" is not really feasible either, so the results of this poll are mostly useless.
     
    Posted Mar 10, 2019
    Acerna, PapiKirito and Fall like this.
  9. I'm not going to reply to the users that directly quoted my answer since I disagree with their points to such an extent that those debates will go absolutely nowhere.

    Instead, let me present you with an official poll sent on the Discord server (@Dulciloquy has mentioned this already but I wish to make my own points around it).

    [​IMG]

    From this, we can see more people voted for Frosting not to have any changes. Not "minor nerfs" - literally no changes whatsoever, as stated in the poll.

    Not a vast majority vote, but it's a clear 51 ahead, as of 10/03/2019. That's a significant difference right there. Poll was released at the end of November last year, but Cake Wars hasn't seen any major updates between now & then, so this data is still perfectly valid.

    You could suggest that it's due to Discord being full of Frosting mains that don't want a nerf - you might possibly be right but there's absolutely no way of knowing that for certain.

    I'm not sure what GI's own verdict is, but I can foresee a tiny nerf coming, eg. slowness duration slightly lowered, and if not, then no change at all. As both are quite likely to happen, I suggest the people complaining about Frosting brace themselves in case Frosting isn't nerfed at all.

    I'll repeat myself on this one thing though, and that's to use the forums to ask for advice on defeating kits like Frosting and some players might have valuable insight to offer you. I tried it with other games and it worked.
     
    Posted Mar 10, 2019
    Acerna, PapiKirito and skarm like this.
  10. In the GI Discord: [​IMG]
     
    Posted Mar 10, 2019
    Acerna likes this.
  11. Thank you for traveling into the future to bring us this information.
     
    Posted Mar 10, 2019
    leo_thya likes this.
  12. Ah, didn’t realize you could vote for more than one.
     
    Posted Mar 10, 2019
  13. Hey there!

    I have read this thread entirely and there are mixed opinions whether they want it to keep the same or make slight changes. There are some opinions about agreeing or disagreeing the changes. Dul has brought up to her point about the frosting kit changes too. She has mentioned about the polls last year that most of the players will keep it the same as it is now.

    I remember thinking about nerf the frost kit a bit because I can able to fight against a player who has a frosting kit easily. Again like I said that the GI may have already discussed about modifying the Frost kit changes.
     
    Posted Mar 15, 2019
  14. Hello!
    I myself have gotten a bit frustrated while playing games, as sometimes I will come across a player that throws a snowball before every attack, but I manage to cope with it because the people that use those kits have spent a lot of time grinding the game in order to unlock it. It may be a bit overpowered, but that is all right to me because of its ranking as the achievement kit, and it shouldn't be on the same power level as the other kits.Thank you for your input :)
     
    Posted Mar 15, 2019
  15. As Cake Wars grows older as a game, more people are likely to get Frosting kit, in which it might make games more fair, but would just be a complete overturn to new players or players that don't want to focus on the achievement kit playing for fun. It is overpowered, and maybe a little not fun but if you're using the Frosting kit it is fun, so it's a bit of point of view. Since Cake Wars is relatively new, it draws some cheaters, and that combined with the already overpowering Frosting kit is one of the things that makes the kit not fun. It may take a while to find a good server with a nice team and opponents, but that may be ruined if a team/player has Frosting, where 2-3 regular players versus a Frosting player is the only fair way to fight or one of the ways to beat the kit. I agree with the knock back part, mainly because even without moving or moving slowly players are able to hit others in their reach. The knock back takes the 'in their reach' part away. Things may change the tables as more people play, but this should still be looked into to enhance other kits or decrease the abilities of the Frosting kit.
     
    Posted Mar 16, 2019
    IwIBrriar likes this.
  16. Playing the game more shouldn't give you any more advantage besides skill and experience, thats my philosophy for games, one that is universal for mini games. Awarding a more powerful kit to players who have already gathered that skill and experience makes it even more difficult for new players. This creates an unfriendly environment for those trying to enjoy the server for casual gameplay or if they are inexperience, something that has been a problem in this server for many game modes even without an overpowered achievement kit. Achievement kits are odd, but I believe they should be a mix of something cool, unique, while also suitable for gameplay. Frosting is too suitable for gameplay, or in other words unsuitable for fair gameplay.
     
    Posted Apr 8, 2019
    Fall likes this.
  17. The kit isn't hard to fight if you are clever about how you attack/defend against someone using frosting. If you're a builder you can suffocate or simply place a block in their path as they run toward you to stop them building up any momentum until the slowness effect wears off.
     
    Posted Apr 8, 2019
    PapiKirito likes this.
  18. 1) Frosting is fine how it is, just 2v1 them if they're annoying
    2) GI is apparently planning a nerf
    3) Frosting isn't really that bad, if you jitter click the slowness doesn't really affect you that bad
     
    Posted Apr 10, 2019
    cerns and PapiKirito like this.
  19. I agree that Frosting need a nerf. Rod in PvP is already powerful enough if used correctly (which most players will since they have to be skilled in order to unlock all the achievements), but adding slowness and shortening the opponents attack range puts it overboard. A speed potion grants a substantial advantage in combat as you can strafe faster, dodge projectiles easier, and have longer combos. Reducing the opponents melee range makes it harder for them to hit you and new inexperienced players may also mistaken it for reach, in which they probably did not mean to break any rules.

    +1

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    Posted Apr 10, 2019
  20. Frosting kit is incredibly overpowered, it gives you a pvp advantage in the early-game, mid-game, end-game. There is nothing you can do pvp wise against a good frosting player other than back off. The knockback you deal with a snowball is an instant combo starter and unless the knockback from snowballs is removed it will always be an overpowered kit.
     
    Posted Apr 11, 2019
    kznny and _Prof_ like this.

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