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Frosting Class Balance Issues

Discussion in 'Cake Wars' started by Necco, Mar 1, 2019.

?

Do you agree that Frosting either the unfun or overpowered?

  1. Yes I agree that it is overpowerd.

    39.6%
  2. Yes I agree that it is unfun

    25.3%
  3. Yes I agree that it is both overpowered and unfun

    26.4%
  4. No I do not think it is unfun, nor is it overpowered.

    31.9%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. Over the course of playing roughly 100 games (almost entirely duos), it has come to my attention that the "Frosting" class is overpowered, unfun, and generally takes away from the game in its current state.

    Contention 1: Overpowered.
    The Frosting class can overpower any other player of roughly equal skill easily just by spamming a couple of slowness snowballs. The only downside I can see, is a rough early game, where the roll-out is either delayed because of waiting for defensive blocks, or unprotected because of no defense blocks; however, picking the latter almost every time can be supplemented by holding and winning a stronger front line due to the snowball advantage. Because the snowballs are projectiles with knockback, it can be hard to even approach any islands as another team. Once midgame is reached, if a Frosting team got a solid hold on the beacons, there is next to nothing other teams can do to halt their progress beyond sneaking to the Frosting team cake and praying that it is unguarded. In the late game, any and all teams with equal gear will find it very difficult to win against Frosting due to there being no way to counter slowness other than a cake RNG speed potion.

    Contention 2: Unfun.
    Whist playing under the effects of a slowness debuff, gameplay becomes unfun and frustrating. This is a subjective point, but I feel that every other class gives while Frosting takes. The builder gives you blocks, Fighter gives you hearts, Archer gives you arrows, but Frosting, Frosting takes away a players mobility, and combat effectiveness. When approaching a Frosting player that is not a bot, defensive play is the only super viable option. Any attempt to cross a narrow bridge will result in a potential snow ball that knocks you off, and if you get to the player, the slowness will allow them to easily combo you. It creates unwarranted stress and limits options. From my point of view, it only serves to take away from the game.

    Suggested Reworks:
    A solution I would enact to balance the class would be to leave only the knockback from the snowballs, and take away the slowness. This would serve to leave a strong early and mid-game, while it would also make the class a bit more approachable, but also give the class more options in combat. Pvp would be improved because knockback from a snowballs is a good combo starter, it does not leave the recipient completely vulnerable. But if the slowness had to stay, I would suggest only letting the player have but a single snowball that has approximately an eight second recharge. A rework like this would keep the class mostly the same, but it would hinder any attempts at spamming, make bridges safer, and only allow one combo-ed player in a fight per Frosting player. The way I see it, Frosting has a bit too much going for it, and it needs to just have some attribute(s) taken away.

    Conclusion:
    Giving players an early projectile that has late game application is overpowered. The slowness makes players a bit too susceptible to combos, and limits most options of non-Frosting players. The few setbacks that comes with selecting the class mostly revolve around limited blocks in the early game, however; this does not matter much when one can win any struggle against one's cake when pvp is almost always a guaranteed win. Frosting is an everything class, and needs to be an archetype.

    Thank you for reading.
     
    Posted Mar 1, 2019
    SudL, JMPhase, _Prof_ and 4 others like this.
  2. Hey, I can see where you're coming from. Especially players who REALLY use them constantly in pvp during cake wars. Personally, I got this kit since a long time ago but I never really play it just cause its not a kit for me. To me, it's a really annoying kit but every kit is fun to play and I like to experiment. There are countless threads on this topic already but I'll give my opinion on it anyways.

    I think of players who use frosting as a challenge, though personally, I think it should be nerfed a bit. Also, I want to bring up the fact that snowballs can be countered, this is a team game so use the 2v1s to your advantage and other skills you may have based on your ability (ex: builder gives you high ground and the platforms provide a space big enough not to get knocked off by snowballs and of course, suffocating lol)Like I said, I can definitely agree that snowballs can get frustrating sometimes, but not every kit is easy to counter.

    Overall, I think GI is working on this at the moment and I heard a nerf be may coming out so stay tuned! This is a very controversial topic since a lot of players play frosting and you can't just take it away, but balances do need to be made.

    -Theories_//Ailin uwu
     
    Posted Mar 2, 2019
  3. Hi, I agree frosting could use a small nerf, maybe reducing the slowness a bit. It is a pretty frustrating kit to play against, but then again all kits can be annoying in certain situations.

    'The Frosting class can overpower any other player of roughly equal skill easily just by spamming a couple of slowness snowballs'
    I mostly disagree with this because although frosting gives you an advantage in pvp, many players don't use their snowballs well and you can at least hit trade with them and get combos too.
    Also, It's not that versatile. For example, builder kit can easily get to beacons and suffocate others (therefore being able to protect their cake easily and deal with several players coming at them at once). Warrior kits can hold down mid and take out another team on their own.
    It's not that overpowered; there are ways to play against it. (Like using platforms, fighting with team mates, using a bow, making good use of ender pearls, dodging.. etc)

    Frosting would definitely be overpowered in a game like gladiators, but as pvp is not the only aspect of cakewars, playing against it is manageable.
     
    Posted Mar 2, 2019
    Typr⌨️ and PapiKirito like this.
  4. Meh, don't agree at all.

    Bear in mind that I use frosting kit, instantly making me a frosting reliant, instantly meaning that I have less skill in the game, and that I only use 'overpowered' kits. I said it so no-one else has to, since there's always that one guy in these type of threads, right?

    Let me just copy-paste a previous response of mine from this thread: https://xen.mineplex.com/threads/frosting.27755/

    "First of all, become an active SSM player to see what severely unbalanced kits are like. If you have experience with that, you may realise that the Cake Wars kits aren't as unbalanced as you think.

    Frosting needs either a tiny nerf or no change.

    The demographic of frosting users: 100% users with all achievements.

    The demographic of all other kits: mostly users without all the achievements, including many users that are new to the game.

    Based on that, it's plain to see that the skill gap of the players is likely to be a significant factor in believing frosting is "op".

    And honestly... if a frosting user misses their snowballs their kit is useless. So maybe practice dodging them?"


    It isn't overpowered, builder's better, but you'd know that if you took all factors into careful consideration and had enough Cake Wars experience to have learned this first-hand. I will go through my reasoning behind this if anyone asks.

    Unfun? Sure, but tell me why builder abusing suffocation and archer preventing you from crossing any bridges for the majority of a game, is less unfun than frosting. All kits are equally "unfun" if used to their full potential, including warrior because that's basically regen for the hackers.

    Your reworks are good if you want nobody to use frosting ever.

    And uh, yeah, instead of whining about frosting, why not ask for some tips on beating frosting users? I'd be more than welcome to help you with that. : )
     
    Posted Mar 2, 2019
  5. Game Insights already has a nerf in mind, however we may need to discuss it again as the results were about 50/50.
     
    Posted Mar 2, 2019
    pzazz likes this.
  6. Vocaloid these results aren't 50/50 if this was what you were referring to. Then again the nerf really isn't much and further discussion is probably still needed

    [​IMG]
     
    Posted Mar 2, 2019
    Fall likes this.
  7. Hey!

    I just wanted to follow up by saying that I agree with it being completely overpower and clearly from what Veans said it has been recognized by the Gi team.
     
    Posted Mar 2, 2019
  8. I'm rather tired of repeating my same response from all the other threads regarding this so ima just leave it at no, it's fine how it is.
     
    Posted Mar 2, 2019
    Typr⌨️ likes this.
  9. What makes you say it's fine? Can you back it up with some evidence, etc.
     
    Posted Mar 2, 2019
  10. Hey there!

    I completely agree with the idea that frosting kit is difficult to play against as it gives the player an advantage in pvp. As I see it, the kit is quite literally meta. I would like to see the kit nerfed in some way in order to balance it compared to other kits, since it becomes difficult to win any form of 1v1 against a Frosting kit, even if you have better armor and sword.
    Although I mentioned that nerfing it is a good idea, I don't necessarily agree with the balance changes you have provided as I feel it would create too much of a "nerf" or damage onto the effectiveness of the kit, ultimately making it near useless (comparable to the Mercy nerfs in Overwatch).

    In conclusion, the frosting kit is a bit too meta and would like to see possible nerfs coming to the kit. Furthermore, the kit does not need heavy nerfs as you have provided, just needs a bit of fine tuning.
    Hope my perspective helps!
    ~ Shotty
     
    Posted Mar 2, 2019
  11. Cake wars is a team game and as such each kit has a purpose for the team- archer is defensive, builder is mobility, warrior is offensive, and frosting is beacon control/1v1 advantage. From what it seems to me, a lot of you guys want to nerf frosting to the point of it having no 1v1 advantage, but that would make the kit's purpose obsolete. That aside, it's really not hard to deal with as it is. Strafing, bow spamming, block placing, suffocating, and going in with a teammate are all viable strategies for fighting the kit- heck, you pretty much can do anything but charge straight at them. Simply put, the kit is just not as good as people make it out to be- no further nerf is necessary.
     
    Posted Mar 2, 2019,
    Last edited Mar 2, 2019
  12. I feel like wanting to nerf it will not give it no point but will actually increase the skill level required to play it. Currently you can just click snowballs in someone direction and they're slowed for way to long.
     
    Posted Mar 2, 2019
  13. It's the poll before / after that one. There were two, one in more detail than that poll
     
    Posted Mar 2, 2019
  14. First, it doesn't need to have a higher skill level to play- it's not a good thing to make a kit less user friendly. Second, no, it's not quite as simple as just clicking in someone's direction- if you ever come up against a half-decent player you will realize that it's not that hard for the snowballs to be dodged or even comboed out of.
     
    Posted Mar 2, 2019
  15. Maybe it's just my superiority complex kicking in again, but 95% of the time, it's super easy to avoid getting suffocated by someone using Builder. Archer is generally a non-issue. I don't personally think any of these kits should be in the game, but I run into far more issues with people who are using frosting as a crutch than I do with people using any other kit. Arguments revolving around Warrior are somewhat useless, considering the kit requires you to kill someone for it to be of any use whatsoever. Sorry, but your reasoning is literally "other kits are worse or just as bad, so there." Or at least, that's what your point would be, had you not said, "is less unfun," which would imply that builder suffocation and archer crossmaps are actually more fun than frosting.
     
    Posted Mar 9, 2019
  16. I have been seeing so many threads about this that I am starting to feel like maybe it is a bit overpowered. However, I still strongly believe that the kit has its up and downs and please keep in mind people with the kit have to go through all the achievements to get it. I definitely don't think putting the achievement kit at the same level as the free kits is fair to the players grinding cakewars.
    Feel free to ask me any questions on my reply on this thread! :D
    Please keep in mind that this is only my opinion.
    CaptainPigmans
     
    Posted Mar 9, 2019
  17. "Sorry, but your reasoning is literally "other kits are worse or just as bad, so there.""

    Uh yeah... that IS perfectly valid and logical thought. Kit isn't OP if the rest are good too. Your reasoning, however is based on a so-called "superiority complex" and the fact that you run into issues with crutch frosting plays. Doesn't convince me, I'm afraid.

    "Super easy to avoid getting suffocated by someone using Builder" I've had builder teammates take on 1v3s after stacking up their platforms. Quite easy to avoid 1 platform? Try 5. Frosting's usually as predictable so maybe a skill/practice issue here.

    "Arguments revolving around Warrior are somewhat useless, considering the kit requires you to kill someone for it to be of any use whatsoever."

    Why does that render all Warrior arguments useless? Using your logic, I could say:

    "Arguments revolving around Frosting are somewhat useless, considering the kit requires you to hit someone with a snowball for it to be of any use whatsoever."

    "Arguments revolving around Archer are somewhat useless, considering the kit requires you to hit someone with an arrow for it to be of any use whatsoever."

    "had you not said, "is less unfun," which would imply that builder suffocation and archer crossmaps are actually more fun than frosting."

    Nothing like what I said, meant, or implied (I know this because several users have read my post, liked it, and not mentioned anything about that line as of yet).

    "which would imply that builder suffocation and archer crossmaps are actually more fun than frosting."

    [​IMG]
    Mmm... sure.

    No offence intended throughout this post - a point had to be made, that's all.

    Lastly, I advise asking for tips or advice on countering certain kits if you're struggling with it. It'll do you a lot more good than complaining about it and not improving whatsoever. There's no shame in it. :D
     
    Posted Mar 9, 2019
    PapiKirito likes this.
  18. saying "just dodge it" is not a valid argument, nor will it ever be. especially for something like snowballs. if your telling me you can consistently dodge point blank, fast snowballs, from a player who knows how to use them, its simply not true. its like playing build uhc, and saying "just dodge the rod".
     
    Posted Mar 9, 2019
  19. Not really. They can spam the rod in uhc all they want, but frosting only has 3-4 snowballs.
    You're right that it's almost impossible to dodge it point blank, but someone hitting you at point blank isn't going to get that combo off because they would already be within your melee range, and thus could be hit, breaking the combo. In order for the snowball or really rod combo to work you have to hit the opposing player right before you get into melee range, which in my experience, is a distance that can be dodged from.
     
    Posted Mar 9, 2019
  20. sorry for posting again but after reading a bit more of this thread, i just HAVE to respond to some of it

    this just doesnt make any sense (then again idk if your speaking in context of cakewars or in context of all kits in mineplex). there is a thing called per kit matchups. in ssm,you have spider, which is considered op, and a bunch of other good kits. just because there are a bunch of other good kits doesnt mean spider isnt op. it is definitely op.

    just because something is predictable doesnt mean theres always something you can do about it. this ties into the previous quote kinda. a kit like warrior can't do anything against frosting. its ability doesnt do anything to prevent getting comboed. (and if you play competitive cwcl, suffocating with builder isnt allowed but this is about public games so w/e)

    killing someone is a bit harder than hitting somebody with a snowball.

    consistently? no. you can dodge it, out of luck perhaps, but not out of your own doing. thats what ive been talking about and it is my apologies if you got confused. yes, it can be dodged by luck, but to dodge them consistently by your own doing, by reacting to where the snowball is and moving out of the way, is not possible. your character, the mc character, literally isnt fast enough (considering you can't sprint left or right). i can use the snowball as a get-off-me tool, and turn their combo into my own combo. i dont need to be outside of their range, lol. yeah i might get hit but its worth to get a free combo for doing something as brainless as throwing a snowball.

    if theres any proof of this statistic, let me know.
     
    Posted Mar 9, 2019

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