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ESP, Ghosting, and BH: The need for an increase in punishment severity

Discussion in 'General Idea Discussion' started by crazygeek516, Nov 20, 2020.

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Should the punishment time for ESP/Ghosting be increased through one of the described methods?

  1. Yes

    97.4%
  2. No

    2.6%
  1. Issue:
    ESP and Ghosting are two issues that have been plaguing BH. Under the current set of rules, both of these offences are classified as Gameplay Trolling, a Severity 1 Gameplay Offence, under "Ruining the game for players in Block Hunt by using unintended means to find and directly travel to hiders." This means that punishment times start off very low, allowing ESPers to run rampant. Although the GI BH update proposal has methods in place to make ESPing and Ghosting harder, a rule change is necessary because they will always be an issue, and will remain easy until whenever we receive an update.

    Proof of Cheating:
    Although I understand that a main reason the punishment is such a low severity is that definitively proving ESP/Ghosting is next to impossible without a self-report, the severity needs to be increased. For those who have played BH for thousands of wins, it is very clear when someone is ESPing/Ghosting. Although I would rather not get into specifics, since sharing how to tell if someone is ESPing/Ghosting lets people hide it better, one very easy way to tell if someone is ESPing/Ghosting is if they beeline a spot that is not frequently used with no way to have seen a Hider there, even if they are Radar kit. This is especially more true in the case of Infestors. The absence of definitive proof should not equate to the punishment time being so low, because the obtainable proof is generally fairly evident. The BH community has developed strategies as BH players that we consider as close to definitive as possible in telling if someone is cheating or not.

    Hacking vs Ghosting:
    This brings to light the next issue: Ghosting isn't a hack, so why should it be punishable any more than other sev1 gameplay offences? The lack of clear differentiation between Ghosting and ESP makes it so that, when someone is ESPing, they are considered to be Ghosting, as it is the less severe offence between hacking and gameplay. This is what prevents ESP from being considered a Hacking offence rather than a gameplay offence. However, this should not be the case. Differentiating between ghosting and ESP is hard, although possible for those with a lot of experience in reporting cheaters. Even despite this however, I believe it is more than fair to classify ghosting as a Hacking offence due to the fact that it ruins the game just as much as ESP. ESPers and Ghosters can clear entire lobbies in a very short amount of time. The time taken by Ghosting to clear a lobby is almost as low as that of ESPing to clear a lobby. The justification for Movement Hacks being a severity 3 Hacking offence is that they "completely ruin gameplay," as pointed out on the rules page and by mab8400 in the BH update proposal thread. In Block Hunt, the goal of the game is to kill all the Hiders (as Hunter) or to survive the full 6 minutes of Hiding time (as Hider). When ESPers/Ghosters are in the lobby, this aspect of gameplay is completely ruined. Hiders are immediately found, as their location is instantly known to the cheater. Legitimate Hunters cannot get the enjoyment of finding Hiders either, because the ESPer/Ghoster finds them significantly quicker. There is almost always at least 1 ESPer/Ghoster per lobby, sometimes multiple, making playing the game incredibly frustrating to the point that it is completely ruined. Due to this, both Ghosting and ESP should be considered offences equal in harm to that of movement hacking. The issue is severe enough that the vast majority of the Top 10 Hunters (by Wins) have cheated at least once, and many of them have a significant portion of their wins due to ESP/Ghosting. Of the players with 1000+ Hunter wins, roughly 1/3 are known to have cheated for at least some of their wins.

    Reports Being Indirectly Discouraged:
    The need for increased punishment times is increased by the difficulty of reporting ESP/Ghosting. It can sometimes take days to gather enough evidence on an ESPer/Ghoster to get an accepted report. Although a good chunk of the BH community knows what to look for in determining if someone is cheating or not, it takes a while to get the evidence. This, combined with the short punishment times, greatly discourages people from reporting ESP/Ghosting. People do not want to spend days gathering evidence only for the ban to be shorter than the time it took to get the evidence. ESP/Ghosting is far more common than reports suggest due to this. Even despite this, however, some players have been punished multiple times for the offence. These players repeatedly ruin games over many months, and are not punished long enough to stop. As mentioned above, a significant portion of the Top 10 Hunters, and roughly 1/3 of those 1000+ Hunter wins, are known to have cheated for at least part of their wins. With how long some players have hidden their ESP/Ghosting, it is quite possible this number is actually higher. I strongly encourage any RC member reading this to take a look at past reports for ESP/Ghosting and to compare them with the leaderboard, keeping in mind that not every cheater gets reported due to the indirect discouragement. Players with a high amount of wins are also far better at hiding their cheating, as they know the methods the BH community uses to determine who cheats or not.

    Punishment Proposals:
    • After the first 2 offences, have ESP/Ghosting be moved to Severity 2 Hacking. Although ghosting is not a hack, it ruins the game just as much as one, and should be punished accordingly. The first 2 offences being left as Severity 1 Gameplay bans would be for the cases of false bans and as a benefit of the doubt assumption that someone is likely ghosting, rather than ESPing, at first.

    • An alternative to this would be to punish ESP/Ghosting twice each offence. The cheater would receive two separate Gameplay Trolling bans, the first of which being for “Ruining the game for players in Block Hunt by using unintended means to find and directly travel to hiders,” and the second of which being for “Preventing team-mates from succeeding in the game by hindering your team” (due to preventing other Hunters from succeeding in their quest to kill Hiders. Despite it being a team game, Hunters almost always act solo). They could also simply receive two bans for the first reason (ruining the game). This would allow their bans to stack up in time quicker, encouraging reporting and making ESP/Ghosting punished more closely to the offence it should relate to: completely ruining the game.

    • Yet another alternative would be to start to differentiate between ESPing and Ghosting in reports, keeping Ghosting as Sev1 Gameplay and bumping ESPing to Sev2 (or preferably Sev3 based on above reasoning) Hacking. Although differentiating between the two is difficult, it is quite possible and many BH players are already able to do so. One of the easiest ways is to compare the tab list in the pre-round lobby with that of the tab list in the match to determine if anyone used /spec. If there is a spectator, or if someone joins during the round before the evidence is collected, the cheater can be given the benefit of the doubt and punished for Ghosting. Since this is simply a benefit of the doubt, only the Hunter (not the spectator) should be punished. If there is no spectator or late joiner, the only way for the cheater to have acquired the location of the Hider is through ESPing, and thus they could be punished with a Sev2/Sev3 Hacking offence. This would be proven to be the case if nobody sees the Hider (being used to report the cheater) travel to their spot, as then not even the Hunter team chat could have been used to tell the cheater the location. The Hider would simply have to look around to ensure nobody is in sight of their spot before they decide to stay there.

    • A final alternative would require dev time, but would likely be the most preferable: adding Sev2/Sev3 Gameplay Offences to the punishment system. This would allow ghosting and ESP to be moved to a higher severity, as well as other punishments to be moved accordingly based on how significantly they ruin gameplay. As stated above, both ESP and ghosting ruin BH in a way equivalent to movement hacks: completely.

    • EDIT: There could also be one ban per piece of evidence supplied. Although multiple pieces of evidence are sometimes needed to ensure validity, each piece of evidence is by itself an instance of them breaking the rule. Once enough evidence is supplied, it can be essentially assured that each instance (recording/piece of evidence) is valid. This would allow, for example, 3 recordings in the same report to result in 3 bans instead of the 1 that they currently would.
     
    Posted Nov 20, 2020,
    Last edited Nov 25, 2020
  2. Based and red pilled department? I think we found a suspect.
     
    Posted Nov 20, 2020
    Mr_Ant87 likes this.
  3. Thank you for making this post, Crazy.

    I will admit that I am not the best at hiding, but the constant ESP and ghosting present in BH has driven me - someone in top 100 hider wins - into flat out giving up and quitting BH entirely.

    It's nearly impossible to provide evidence of ESP without recording it, and getting the video uploaded and ready for submission takes forever. Even going through with it is rarely worth doing so with the current punishment severity. Please, if any devs or admins are reading this thread, do SOMETHING about this!

    On the other hand, the other BH mains and I usually subject ESP users to mob justice. We just bully them into rage quitting most of the time.
     
    Posted Nov 20, 2020,
    Last edited Nov 20, 2020
  4. Good post, I agree

    Unfortunately, as Crazy stated, many of the top 10 hunters use ESP; it's impossible to make them quit due to their skill level.
     
    Posted Nov 20, 2020
    crazygeek516 likes this.
  5. Starting off, I'm going to say that I agree with this post in every aspect. You've outlined all the problems and their respective solutions that is simple to comprehend and contain valid arguments.

    Can confirm, it's very annoying for some random ESPer to steal your kills/Hunter of the Year from cheating. I want to find players on my own and get better, not get carried by some random that probably won't ever play Mineplex after they get banned once.

    This is one of the main reasons as to why hider mains have stopped playing: so many people cheating for a number. It's so stupid to cheat when you could just get good by playing the game legit, it's not very difficult.

    This is the sole reason why I don't record and report randoms: it's a waste of my time to get someone banned for 4 hours when, once they log off, will never log back into Mineplex. My main goal is recording more known players and get them defamed from being actually skilled in the game, which is more important than a couple hours' ban in my eyes.

    This is the best alternative that doesn't involve dev time. You can definitely spot the differences, which takes gameplay experience and multiple opinions. I would rather see ghosting at the same severity as ESP, but with the current punishment system, there is no intuitive way to implement that.

    Best alternative since both are equally gamebreaking and there wouldn't need to be a fine line between ESPing and Ghosting, they're just as equally punishable as each other and would be easier to punish for, incentivize recording and reporting, and keep ESPers out of the games. A hacking ban would also be good since it would count toward the 8 bans on alts for a NWB, which would keep all accounts of someone permanently off of the network.

    One thing I would like to add is that there is a lack of qualified RC members to punish for ESP. A lot of them simply don't have the game experience required to accurately punish for ESP, leaving only 1-2 members on the team that should be punishing. Something about this needs to be done, whether it be through a team, inviting members to RC that can punish for BH-related offenses, or simply asking experienced players.

    Overall, amazing thread with some amazing points that need to be addressed by being implemented.
     
    Posted Nov 20, 2020
    Fusafez, dualkong, Zomaholic and 5 others like this.
  6. Whats poppin!

    Hey, you make some great points, however there are some points I would like to address in order to clear things up before we start this discussion.

    First both of these rules don't fall under a Gameplay Trolling. Ghosting is listed as a Severity 1 Chat Offense for Ghosting. Typically when someone is ghosting you can always create a /report in game and a Moderator will handle it whenever they're available. Second, ESP hacks are listed as a Severity 2 General Hacking. Which means the punishment time is a lot more severe rather than if it's a Severity 1 Gameplay Offense.

    Now lets get into this discussion. RC only deals with ESP hacking as it's difficult to detect. Though you're right, those who are trained to see ESP hacks can easily identify them. However most staff members can't dispute ESP hacking and if a player finds someone. Which is one of the primary reason a lot of players use ESP hacks.

    Regarding ghosting I sorta agree with you about the rule. However personally I do believe that it should be a instant severity 1 mute rather than being bumped to severity 2. The reason being ghosting isn't that severe. For example do you think General Harassment and Ghosting fall under the same category? Then there's also the argument that people don't mean to ghost and it's an accident.

    Finally it's about the time a player is punished. A player's punishment time is decided by the system. Depending on the certain rule they break the time will increase in future offenses. Though I don't believe the punishment time should be increased. Just imagine being muted for 30 days because you informed players where 1 player was located one time in a game that no one will ever remember. It wouldn't be fair towards others.

    If you wish to rebuttal against me I'm open to hear it! I'll be open to hearing anything you have to say that you don't agree with.
     
    Posted Nov 20, 2020
    CookieBilly likes this.
  7. no they are both sev 1. see the problem?
     
    Posted Nov 20, 2020
    JAKE///, CZArkolan and crazygeek516 like this.
  8. by "Ghosting" gazycreek refers to using an alt to spec hiders, someone in spec telling you where the hider is, etc. basically ESP but instead of downloading a client you use an alt to find hiders
     
    Posted Nov 20, 2020
    JAKE///, CZArkolan and crazygeek516 like this.
  9. Also sorry for that my bad about the incorrect severity. I do agree that ESP should be bumped to a Severity 2 offense but not the other. Gameplay Trolling really refers to trying to ruin the game for others. I'll talk more about this in the second quote.

    Only way that problem can be dealt with is from an IP check from an Admin. Also RC can correct me if I'm wrong but that seems like a version of Stat Boosting. Using an Alt to find players in order to increase your stats. As their intentions isn't to ruin the game for others, but rather help themselves.
     
    Posted Nov 20, 2020
    CookieBilly likes this.
  10. It can be dealt with regardless. All you need is to look at the gameplay. If you notice odd pauses and an account in spec, it's pretty obvious if someone is ghosting with an alt. Additionally, it could be a friend in spec telling where the hiders are, so an IP check wouldn't necessarily work.
     
    Posted Nov 20, 2020
    CZArkolan and crazygeek516 like this.
  11. That may be true but the staff team has regulations that they have to follow. RC doesn't want to take a chance by allowing staff to punish for a few clues. They need proof that it's happening. Which is why self reports are more commonly than others. Also with the friend ghosting it's the same as being in a VC with a friend telling you about a player approaching or something along those lines. Mineplex can't punish for anything related outside of Mineplex jurisdiction.
     
    Posted Nov 20, 2020
    crazygeek516 and CookieBilly like this.
  12. That is exactly how RC has been punishing for ESP/Ghosting. They're just not clues either, it's blatantly obvious.

    They're not more common, it is much much much much much more common to punish for ESP/Ghosting through reports and RC punishing.

    The gameplay is illegitimate so it's under mineplex jurisdiction
     
    Posted Nov 20, 2020
    Paladise likes this.
  13. This post makes me happy
     
    Posted Nov 20, 2020
    mab8400, CZArkolan and crazygeek516 like this.
  14. I haven’t been playing BH for that long but it’s VERY obvious when someone is ESP’ing or using some means of an unfair advantage. It makes hiding nearly insufferable because we all know that the hacker will not receive punishment, or minimal punishment if they are caught by staff.

    good post, good read, 10/10 would recommend to the average joe! get these losers banned!! :sigils:
     
    Posted Nov 20, 2020
    CZArkolan, Minevaft and crazygeek516 like this.
  15. To confirm, I do mean "Ghosting" as in using an alt/spec to find Hiders in a way to go directly to them. Unlike issues with VC and other games, where it can be very hard to tell if someone is receiving extra information or not, ghosting in BH drastically changes Hunter behavior. It is very easy to see if someone is doing so once you know what to look for. As stated in my post, the BH community has already reached the point where we can personally differentiate between ESP and Ghosting despite both ruining the game to the same degree. It affects Mineplex's game, so it is very much within their jurisdiction. When people say ghosting in a VC is not punishable, they really refer to the fact that you said nothing in chat, and thus cannot get muted. Since it is breaking a game rule in this case, it is very much punishable, and has already resulted in many punishments.
     
    OP OP
    OP OP Posted Nov 20, 2020
    CZArkolan likes this.
  16. Although I am referring to the Gameplay Trolling portion of ghosting, I will admit I do think it is fair to have a long mute for revealing a Hider location in chat. The BH community really loves this game, and we get fed up with all the rule-breaking to the point many people have quit. Although one single instance of this would be essentially not remembered, people will remember it happening over and over.
     
    OP OP
    OP OP Posted Nov 20, 2020
    CZArkolan likes this.
  17. Well when you refer it to that then like I said in a previous post I would consider that stat boosting rather than Gameplay Trolling. Gameplay Trolling really refers to a single individual ruining the match. What your referring to is when a player either uses a friend or alt to locate hiders in order to boost their stats and rewards. Which the punishment for Stat Boosting is severe in my opinion.
     
    Posted Nov 21, 2020
  18. It is a single individual going directly to hiders by illegitimate means....
     
    Posted Nov 21, 2020
    crazygeek516 and Paladise like this.
  19. Gameplay Trolling is "Purposely trying to frustrate or to ruin the game for others." It doesn't require it to only be done by one person, otherwise people could group up together to ruin games without fear of punishment. People who Ghost/ESP to go to Hiders' locations ("Ruining the game for players in Block Hunt by using unintended means to find and directly travel to hiders") are by definition Gameplay Trolling. I admit I also consider this stat boosting, but currently the punishment for it is exclusively Gameplay Trolling. My original post describes the reasons I believe it needs to be bumped up to be a higher offence based on its current definition, and proposes that ESP (a hack) properly gets a Hacking ban as opposed to just a Gameplay Trolling ban. If RC can prove that an alt (same IP) is being used to ghost, Stat Boosting would be more than fitting as a punishment as well. That being said, most ways to stat boost also have other rules attached, such as anti-afk and botting being linked, so it makes sense for at least one of my proposals to go through even if Stat Boosting was added as a punishment.
     
    OP OP
    OP OP Posted Nov 21, 2020
    CZArkolan, mab8400 and Jaek like this.
  20. As An Ancient ESPer, it has Become Quite Common since The Hunter Update. I would honestly Love To See These.
     
    Posted Nov 24, 2020
    CZArkolan, dualkong and _Kaz like this.

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