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Changes to Consider? An Alternate View

Discussion in 'Survival Games' started by DarkenExcalibur, Nov 1, 2019.

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How satisfied are you with Mineplex Survival Games?

  1. Completely Satisfied

    31.6%
  2. Very Satisfied

    10.5%
  3. Quite Satisfied

    15.8%
  4. Not Very Satisfied

    36.8%
  5. Completely Dissatisfied

    5.3%
  1. After thinking it through for quite some time now, I have decided to give a sober account of some of the things that I think to need to be addressed in SG. I will address the aspects of the game that seem to me to be the most problematic and others, that over the 7000+ games that I have played, have raised a few doubts in my mind.
    I have subdivided my discussion into a few helpful sections, starting with kits.

    Kits
    Horseman Kit
    I have played on Mineplex for many years now and kits have always been controversial. I don't think there has ever been a time when kits were not the subject of discussion and debate both in-game and on these forums. Over the years the main targets of complaint have been (1) Brawler and (2) Knight. Therefore, I was surprised to see that many people want to remove the Horseman Kit from the game, given that for most of its history it was considered to be just a mediocre kit. Here would be a summary of my position on this problem:
    The Horseman is difficult to get for the majority of players. When we look at games, objectively speaking, there are, at most, 2 players who use this kit (out of 24). Thus, it cannot be that the kit is massively overpowered. Interestingly, this complaint seems to have arisen only recently, and therefore I think that the problem really lies with other updates (more on this below). Therefore, I see very little reason to have it removed altogether. But perhaps it should be nerfed? Let's see if this is the case. The most common complaints against the kit are:
    (i) Camping Fights
    (ii) Cleaning Fights
    (iii) Using the Bow when on the Horse is unfair
    Are these good objections? I don't think so. The first thing that everyone should bear in mind is that these are only problems when (a) a Horseman is still around later in-game (b) there is a competent player using the kit. The probability that these occur is very low, so the three objections above are already rather weak based on these considerations. In other words, these are only problems if the Horseman is actually there to cause them, but this is often not the case. But suppose there is a Horseman in-game, what then?
    Well, one has to consider your chances when one fights against the kit. I can tell from experience that it is difficult to hit people from the Horse. Often, you get carried forward by momentum and you lose a lot of time. Equally, it is very easy to get straight-lined by your opponent: the Horseman is very susceptible to combos, and thus faces difficulties in fights. This means that "cleaning" and "camping" are all that a Horseman can really do. Given that both you and the guy on the horse regenerate at the same rate, "camping" fights should not be an issue, because the Horseman, as described above, has a large disadvantage. Hence objection (i) is weak. The next objection does not fair any better because the same argument can be used against all the other kits: everyone cleans. The only thing that Horseman has that is different is speed, but that is the only advantage of the kit anyway and gratuitously assumes that the Horseman is actually there to clean you up (you still have to be found). Now the last objection fails too because one can use the bow both on or off the horse: it requires a skill. One could argue that the Horseman can camp during fights and use the bow, but that can be done without the Horseman Kit too, and assumes that the player on the Horse is competent on the bow. Overall the case against Horseman is that typically good players (with say 200+ wins) use the Horseman kit effectively, maximising its advantages. The issue here is that a strong case can be made against all the kits for being overpowered simply because good players are winning with them. I can imagine the Horseman kit being nerfed or removed, but people starting to complain about a different kit.
    Other Kits
    To be honest, I have little else to say about other kits.
    The following I think can be kept as they are: Brawler, Archer, Knight, Barbarian, Axeman. I think that Brawler is still the strongest, but I think its powers are at a suitable level. To be honest I think that Brawler is far better and more "annoying" that Horseman.
    (a) Assassin - I have mixed feelings for this kit. I think that the new ability is simply garbage. Perhaps an easier solution is just to give the Assassin a compass that points to the nearest player. I think that it would make the kit a lot better. To counteract this increase, I think that the "feather falling" advantage should be increased from 50% fall damage taken to 75% or even just 100%.
    (b) Bomber - this kit has progressively deteriorated in quality and forums used to repeat again and again that this kit needs to be improved. The problem is that now TNT drops have become far too common, so bomber is just redundant.

    Game Features
    In this section, I wish to describe some of the in-game features that I feel are poor and need to be changed or altered.
    Supply Drop & Chess Loot
    It seems to me that these problems walk hand in hand. I will start with the supply drop: I honestly see no good reason to have this "random" supply drop location nonsense in the game. The only reason that I have read that this was added is to stop people from camping the supply drops, but this was only a problem because people are not good at using coordinates and thus cannot find the supply drop while others have learnt the locations. Now that this change has been implemented the new players that are not good with coordinates will not be able to find them, while more experienced players will use coordinates to camp the location once anyway. Therefore, this addition has created a considerably unequal situation whereby new players will hardly ever (only by accident perhaps) be able to get a supply drop. Before the update, even new players could learn the five locations pretty quickly and have a go at getting the supply drop. Now only the experienced get them: I have noticed that now there is almost no competition for the supply drop loot and most of the time no one gets it at all! Now, this brings me to the next problem - the chest tiering system. I have noticed that some central chests have a large amount of iron armour in them. I think that this is a stupid move for a few reasons:
    (1) It makes supply drop pointless - based on my experience, I have seen that by the end of the game, there are at least two people with full iron. These people were not the most skilled but often those that good the armour from spawn. Now, what can the supply drop give them? The supply drop contains the same stuff (most of the time) as the stuff at spawn. Now, of course, you will tell me that it can sometimes have an iron or even diamond sword, but I think that this is not enough and gives little reason to actually go for the supply drop. Now, this is a small objection but I think plays a certain role in my ***ulative case against the new tiering system.
    (2) It introduces considerable luck into the game - this is a big problem. Very often, and I have been outraged myself, I have managed to get full iron armour on, say, Kikoshi Island without killing anyone. This I think means that winning the game is less about skill and more about getting lucky with the spawn chest: if you click on a few, you are guaranteed iron leggings, a stone sword and a chain chest plate! Skill in the game or strategy of any sort seems to be lost.
    (3) It makes Horseman far more overpowered - this objection comes back to bite the critics of the Horseman Kit. You see, the probability that you die within the first 2 minutes of the game is very high, especially if you are actually hoping to win the game since to do so you have to go to spawn (otherwise you will miss out on the iron stuff). And here the Horseman gets a strong advantage because after getting some loot and waiting for about 20 seconds, you get a horse and run away, (or start killing people) and survive! Meanwhile, everyone else is getting slaughtered near spawn. This brings me to my last point.
    (4) It makes central chests far too important. This is obviously a problem: you can win the game within 10 seconds of its starts! There is no iron armour around the map so unless you want to get killed in the late game by a full iron enchanted monster, you are forced to go to mid. This inevitably leads to dozens of deaths within 30 seconds. At this point, the people who (a) got an iron axe/ stone sword or (b) got full/ near full iron will have a massive advantage and start hunting those who were unfortunate enough to go to mid but get the chest with 2 pieces of leather armour and a wooden axe (happened today to me).
    My advice or perhaps suggestions are either:
    (i) Remove tier two chest altogether so that the only way to get iron stuff is through the supply drop (I prefer this)
    OR
    (ii) Start adding tier 2 chests around the map with iron swords and armour etc.
    If the second option is chosen, then it would be necessary to rethink supply drops completely since they would be redundant.
    Border & Deathmatch
    Personally, I don't see why the border speed was changed and the deathmatches were removed. Was there a good reason for this? I would like to hear it. A few times now I have seen people get to the last 4 but get trapped somewhere or be killed by the extremely fast-moving border. I don't see what the problem was before, so I am genuinely confused with this one. I really liked to /dm command by the players and I thought that it was cool. Perhaps, someone can tell why this was scrapped?!
    Miscellaneous Suggestions
    Here I will add a list of suggestions that I think should be considered:
    (1) Get rid of the map - I understand that this is a feature for new players but I have never felt the urge to use it even when I am unfamiliar with the map. Frankly, although it was a good idea in theory, I am convinced that almost nobody uses it in practice. If you really want to map, make it optional - I find it annoying.
    (2) Make it so that boats will break and give you sticks. I think this will simply be helpful
    (3) Allows Fire Aspect I to be enchantable. I know that you can get it on gold swords but it does not work for some reason. I tried but it did not set anyone on fire!
    (4) Do Chest refills. I think it is helpful to be able to restock the chests. Perhaps the reason it is not done is that the chests at spawn are tier 2 so will be restocked with OP gear. Thus, I advocate for the abolition of Tier 2 chests all together.
    (5) I would like to see a new kit added in the near future too. Perhaps something like "Fisherman" which is a common suggestion.
    (6) Reduce spawn rates of arrows and replace these with flint, feathers and sticks. That should make things better for those that want to craft Gold Swords etc.
    (7) Bring in spider webs - I think they could be helpful and fun!
    (8) Think about increasing the health of players during the "grace period" to counter spawn killing problems
    (9) Decrease the TNT timer to make it more useful when escaping from enemies
    (10) Change the chest loot tables so that certain item combinations won't spawn, to stop people getting a chain chest plate, leggings and sword from one chest
    (11) Balance Swimming. This one I am not sure about but I think that players using Minecraft Version 1.8 swim slowly, but those playing on more advanced versions can swim far more quickly underwater. I could just be confusing normal players with hackers but.....
    (12) As always, start sorting out the hacking problems. It has gotten better over the last few weeks but it is always something to work on!

    Concluding Remarks
    I have given a brief overview of the main problems, from my perspective, with Mineplex SG. Undoubtedly there are many things that could be added to this list but I think that this would be a good starting point for discussion. I think that SG has decreased in popularity as of late (although this may be due to the decrease in Mineplex plater numbers) which is something that I would like to see reversed! I look forward to some interesting and hopefully productive discussions below.

    Thank you for giving this a read! I hope I have not made too many grammatical mistakes :)

    DarkenExcalibur
    Total Games: 7284
    Solo Wins: 607
    --- Post updated ---
    Just to add another thing: my views on the kits are quite bland. I am open to other suggestions about what kits should/ shouldn't do. There have been many previous posts on this matter. I missed out necromancer above. I am not too sure what to do with the kit because I think, if used effectively, it can be difficult to beat, so again I am not too seriously inclined to make significant additions to it.
     
    Posted Nov 1, 2019
    rqil and Mr_Ant87 like this.
  2. Hey there, I agree with a lot with what you say. Like for an example how the border is moving way to fast in game. I would like to see some improvements done to the game, like what you said. Also, I would like to point out that many others want to see improvement to the game, and I am also sure that sometime in the future that it will be improved.
     
    Posted Nov 1, 2019
    DarkenExcalibur likes this.
  3. I agree with a lot of these! Horseman hasn't really been touched at all, and the claims of it being powerful seems like a very recent thing. Horseman worsens exponentially as the border moves in because they have less and less room to utilize their mobility advantage. Players who are being chased by a Horseman from the start of the game are subject to the most risk of dying to a Horseman, but forcing them to get off their horse to persist a fight (such as entering into a tigher space) eliminates any advantage they'd have from being on their horse.
    Brawler and Knight have consistently been the two kits that players have complained about the most for the longest time. Back in the day, these kits were a lot more powerful than they are right now (Knight especially). Combine that with the larger playerbase back in the day, these were the go-to kits for good players because it allowed them to engage combos a lot easier (Brawler) and tank fights more effectively than any other kit (Knight). These advantages still stand true today, though, so I don't agree that they're necessarily nonviable. As for Bomber, sure they get TNT as a passive, but their ability to shoot explosive arrows allows the adept players to be extremely influential in how a fight turns out considering they can use both the TNT they get in chests as well as the ones they get as a passive, so I think the kit is fine. As for Assassin, increasing the fall damage reduction (which is already very good considering the height differences on many maps) would make the kit too powerful in that regard. Imagine if an Assassin player jumped off the top of a mountain on Primal with zero consequences, it'd just be far too powerful and I think a 50% as it currently has is good as it is.
    Supply drops are a controversial topic, but I'll reply to your opinions with mine. For one, the randomization of where supply drops spawn adds a another form of skill gap into the game, and I personally think that's a good thing since it makes a player have to be better in order to get the win rather than simply having it handed to them. I also see a bit of a contradiction in a couple of your opinions. You claim that the supply drops being dropped in a random spot makes the game too "luck-based" and Horseman a lot more powerful since it gives those kit users and/or the better players have too much of advantage, but you also admit yourself that a lot of the loot in a supply drop is somewhat redundant considering a lot of it spawns in tier 2 chests (spawn chests). If the supply drop consistently had substantially better loot than tier 2 chests, then the randomization of the drop locations would be a problem, but considering a large portion of the loot that spawns in it can already be found off of other players or from unlooted spawn chests, it could potentially give a player who missed out on the better end of the spawn loot a chance to get more even with the players who were able to get it, and I think that dynamic is a much better addition to the game than the old system of predictable, set drop locations. You also mention that this makes central chests far too important since "iron armor doesn't spawn anywhere else", but I think that's where the iron armor spawns in supply drops could potentially make up for that. If the chances of the gear that spawns in a supply drop won't benefit a player, then they may choose not to go out of their way to get it which allows other players to get more on that level, and I think that's very fair. SG is inherently a luck-based game in a lot of ways, and it's impossible to get rid of that completely without removing chests entirely and giving everyone the same loot, so I think playing into the fact that it's based a lot on luck and the fact that even an underdog can get up to the same level as a more stacked player through the use of a not-so-powerful supply drop is an extremely interesting part of the game.
    The /dm command was taken away to make games end quicker. players were only ever able to use the command once there were only four people left, and on a map as large as an SG map with a border that moved at a constant, extremely slow rate dragged the game out longer than it had to. Making the border speed variable and increase in speed depending on when players die makes it end faster since players are forced to the middle of the map a lot faster than they would've been with the old system. Players getting caught outside of middle and dying to the border is a problem in some areas, like the path on Shattered Kingdom up to mid that runs parallel to where the border would be coming in, but more often than not it's the players who aren't paying attention to how many players are left or where they are or where the border is that die; them not paying attention and dying to the border does not mean the border itself is overpowered, just that they weren't paying attention and shouldn't make that mistake again.
    1. The map is an addition that allows newer players to know where they are on the map relative to the middle. It's not optional to keep the map if you feel as though you have no use for it, and you can easily throw it out. There's a command to get another one if you do feel the need to get one back though.
    2. Boats stopped dropping sticks as a result of a version bug iirc, but SG GI have added it to the document (I'll talk about that in a little bit).
    3. Fire aspect not lighting players on fire is a bug that's on the entire network, not just SG; iirc it still inflicts extra damage that the fire wouldn't caused on top of the other enchants it has, but I'm not entirely sure if that's still a thing (it used to work like that in Skywars back in the day).
    4. Chest refills not happening was not an intentional change, and we have it suggested to re-introduce it.
    5. If we're struggling with balancing the kits we currently have, we have no need to pump the game with more because it'll make it a lot harder to balance.
    6. Reducing the amount of arrows that spawn are already noted.
    7. Spider webs would introduce way too big of a skill gap in the game. If supply drops in their current state are subject to as much debate about power as they are, then the last thing we need is to introduce another thing in the game that would genuinely make the already good players too powerful.
    8. I see the increasing the health of players during the grace period fairly redundant considering a player who doesn't attack another during that period retain their speed whereas the players who do attack lose it, and it allows them to be outran extremely easy.
    9. Decreasing the timer would have to be done extremely carefully as to not make it far too powerful for Bombers or anyone else utilizing TNT. It's already very viable to kill players in water.
    10. There's already a small limit placed on how much of one type of loot can spawn in a chest. It could be lowered more, but it'd require a bit more discussion.
    11. Version bugs like that are much harder to fix considering Mineplex supports so many versions, but we're all hoping for a fix eventually, even though it's unlikely.
    12. I'm sure everyone agrees with this too!

    Overall, I think this is a wonderful thread with a lot of good ideas! I've pointed out what I feel is untrue/isn't necessarily the best suggestion, but GI has a document we created that outlines changes we feel need to be made to the game. It's fairly small right now since SG is overall a fairly balanced gamemode, but we appreciate all suggestions! You can read the document here.
    --- Post updated ---
     
    Posted Nov 1, 2019
    Xukuri and Im_Ken like this.
  4. I just want to make a few points of clarification, where perhaps I am being misunderstood.

    (1) When I mentioned the Assassin kit, my point was that if we replace the map with a compass, then you would have to reduce the Assassin's passive ability, by increasing the amount of fall damage that they take from 50% to 75% (or 100%). What I mean is you make it closer to the other kits.
    (2) I am not sure what you mean when you say that I claim "that the supply drops being dropped in a random spot makes the game too luck-based". The only criticism of mine that mentioned luck was the chest tiering system - the idea that one can go to spawn at the start and grab full iron. This has no direct relationship to what I said about supply drops since my 4 points were there to present a case against differentiation of chest loot between tier 1 and tier 2 chest.

    I think there is a fundamental misunderstanding here. I present one claim exclusively about supply drops:
    (1) Randomized Supply Drop Locations give experienced players too much of an advantage over new players

    The rest of my claims are about the tiering system as a whole. I argue against the idea that spawn chests have this "better " loot in the first place using my four points:
    (1) If Spawn Chests contain really good loot, then supply drops are redundant
    (2) Horseman has an advantage because they can get away easily at the start
    (3) Tier 2 chests at spawn introduce too much luck
    (4) The tiering system makes spawn chests too important

    From here your relevant response is that players who are unable to obtain spawn chest loot can get it from supply drops. This demonstrates my point perfectly! As a thought experiment, imagine what is going on in the game. There are two players with full iron (and possibly enchanted weapons) who are hunting players one by one. You have been running and hiding from them all game and suddenly a supply drop is announced. If you are a new player and unfamiliar with coordinates, then you have no hope. If you are a more experienced player, you have a chance at getting the loot, and maybe you can obtain extra pieces of armour. This assumes, of course, that the two full iron tanks have not gone for the supply drop (I will concede in line with my previous post that this is unlikely but it is still a possibility). The other thing to note here is that you say "player". Therefore, out of the 24 tributes, 2 of which have full iron, at most one other player can get on their level and actually stand a chance at winning. Do not forget that there are about 5 times as many "supply drop level" chests at spawn so the effect of one player getting the supply drop seems rather small.
    That is why I argued that either (1) you get rid off the tier 2 loot at spawn or (2) you put tier 3 loot in the supply chests.

    The real issue for me is that I do not see what Tier 2 chests have actually added to the game: the effect has been uniformly negative since it means that the person that is lucky enough to grab the good stuff from spawn wins. The game is not about what you do during the entire 10 minutes, but what you grab in the first 10 seconds. I just do not see why the old chest system was worse. The changes that have been made do increase the luck involved and do bias the earlier stages of the game.

    Other than that I do not have much to add. Perhaps only, that I am not sure what you mean by "nonviable". I did not say that the kits should be thrown out, on the contrary, I think that they are good the way they are. Anyways, thank you for the helpful comments!
     
    OP OP
    OP OP Posted Nov 1, 2019
  5. Heyo!

    I completely agree! The changes you have mentioned, they have brought me to my attention that the fact of these new changes could benefit Mineplex as a whole! The community will probably love these changes as well if they are implemented into Mineplex one day!
    Yea, the horseman kit is certainly a controversial one. Many members of the community love it, while some community members hate it and want it vaulted from Mineplex entirely. I'm not quite sure on my opinion for this kit as of right now, as I'm not really playing with the horseman kit or really seeing anyone use it so I don't really see much problem, but if I see it more often I might agree with the players that are saying it should be vaulted.
    Have a good day!
     
    Posted Nov 1, 2019
    DarkenExcalibur likes this.
  6. Will only focus on the horseman part, because I very much disagree with it and think horseman certainly needs some nerfing/maybe even removal.

    Disagree with this. Even if a kit is rarely an issue due to how little it's used it's still unfair because the few who do use it can get a big advantage. Despite what you put later on most people will agree Axeman needs a nerf despite the fact that it's rarely used.

    The way people use/view kits can change over time as new strategies and whatnot are discovered. I've been playing SG for many years and I certainly don't remember people playing Horseman the way they do now back then.

    You make this sound as if they are permanently stuck on the horse, they aren't, they can get off at anytime and participate in regular melee if they want.

    The cleaning up is one of the most glaring issues with horseman. It's true that anyone can clean up but you said it yourself, horseman have speed, if you've just got out of a fight and are low on health, if there's a horseman nearby you're basically screwed because it's useless to try running away, the only time it might work is if there is a building with multiple entrances nearby since horses usually can't get inside buildings. Your last note is true, but there's nothing stopping a horseman from stalking people, waiting until they get into fights and then cleaning them up once the fight is finished.

    Bow spamming on a horse is more effective, if someone NOT on a horse is bow spamming you, you've got 2 options:

    1 - Try to dodge the arrows and get closer
    2 - Run away

    Neither of these are viable when a horseman user is the one bow spamming you. Trying to dodge the arrows and get closer won't work since you won't catch the horseman and trying to run away won't work because of course, you can't run away from a horseman.
     
    Posted Nov 8, 2019
  7. I understand what you mean but I don't really see why this means that Horseman should be removed or nerfed. Suppose that one person in the game finds two diamonds and full iron armour: they too would have a big advantage and would probably win the game. Should we, therefore, remove the possibility of getting a diamond sword and full iron? No. We would say that getting those things is very improbable. In the same way, having a competent player use Horseman to beat people is also a very improbable occurrence, so there should not be a problem with that.

    You say that cleaning is a problem. Sure but think about what you argue. Your point was that if you have fought AND were on low health AND there was a Horseman in the game AND the Horseman was close by, then you would be screwed. However, I would argue that the probability of having a Horseman nearby the clean you up is much much lower than having any other player you can do so. You point out that the player can get off the Horse, but then they have none of the advantages that you speak of The only point at which the Horseman kit is useful is when the Horse is actually being used.

    The only objection here must be that when Horseman is used and a good player is using the kit in a certain way, then the kit is unfair. Therefore there are three conditions that must be met if the situation is to be unfair:

    (1) Horseman is actually used
    (2) A Good player is using Horseman
    (3) The Good player uses Horseman in a particular way

    If these conditions are highly improbable, or unlikely, then your argument could be raised against having iron armour, diamond swords, supply drops too. Are these statement improbable/ unlikely? I think so.
    (1) Few players use the kit because it is difficult to obtain
    (2) Few players can be classified as "good players"
    (3) Not every Horseman uses the bow spamming strategy

    Therefore the kit is not unfair most of the time and is not a problem. It seems to be therefore that your objection is that good players are using the kit effectively, but that is not something that should be penalised in SG because it will occur for as long as you have kits.
     
    OP OP
    OP OP Posted Nov 8, 2019
  8. Except that isn't really comparable to an OP kit because everyone has a chance at that happening to them. It requires a bit of luck but most players will agree and even enjoy that SG is somewhat luck based. The same exact thing you said about horseman also applies to the diamond sword and full iron armour, if someone bad at PVP gets them, and you're able to combo them to death without even getting hit, that doesn't mean the diamond sword and iron armour are bad, it means the player wasn't using their tools to their fullest potential.

    Should also remember that getting Horseman in the first place requires them to have gotten every achievement, so they are going to be somewhat competent and have some half decent experience by default.

    Thing is, Horseman clean ups are unfair compared to regular clean ups. Usually clean ups aren't too much of an issue for a good enough player, they might be in death match but at least in the regular game they aren't too big a deal. Well horseman completely throws that out of the window, because you cannot run from them, running away is the biggest counter to clean ups, more often than not when I clean someone up it's because they aren't paying attention and are sorting through a mountain of loot trying to get 1 specific item out of it. If that person paid attention to their surroundings, and ran away when they saw me, I wouldn't have been able to clean them up. Horseman however? Even if you're paying attention, if you're low on health and need to run they can catch you and there is nothing you can do.

    You mention that a horseman cleaning you up is rare, and you're right. But look at it from the horseman's perspective, for a good horseman that's almost every game they're unfairly cleaning someone up, I don't know about you but even if it isn't happening to me personally a lot, the fact that horseman users are able to just do it it still is annoying.

    Again those apply to literally every other kit too, if someone is using an OP kit but sucks then of course it's not a problem, it's the few who can and are doing it that are the probem. My argument I made in the first paragraph also comes back here, if someone has horseman then they likely are at least somewhat good, they did get every achievement after all. You mention that not every horseman is using the bow spamming which is true, but it's still an option, which it shouldn't be.

    Hypothetically, if Mineplex made an update to knight so that hilt smash had a 5% chance of instantly killing someone, would you want it gone? I mean it's so rare that it shouldn't be an issue, right?
     
    Posted Nov 8, 2019
    leo_thya likes this.
  9. Right, but why is what you say actually relevant?
    My point is that under certain circumstances one is able to obtain a large advantage but that does not mean that we remove that possibility. Equally, under a set of circumstances, it is possible to get an advantage using the Horseman kit. The same is true for any other kit. For example, on Aztec Island, a brawler or barbarian may have an enormous advantage because they can throw people off a cliff or into lava, but this does not mean that we remove both the kits or nerf them on that map. Surely, it means that if your argument is true, then brawler and barbarian should be removed because they can be used in this way?

    In the end, your argument comes down to two main statements:
    (i) Horseman can clean and bow spam
    (ii) The two strategies are successful if good players use them
    Therefore, Horseman should be nerfed or removed.

    My point is that you have been repeated over and over that (ii) is true. I agree. The strategies are successful if used by good players. My objection that I have been trying to get across is - so what? So what if good players can use these strategies successfully? Why is that unfair?
    For cleanups, you argue that it is the fact that you cannot get away which makes Horseman unfair. I can run a parallel response and say that bomber is unfair because their arrow explodes, that brawler is unfair because they knock you off cliffs, that barbarians are unfair because they suck you into lava etc.
    It seems to me that you are simply naming an advantage or speciality of the kit rather than what is actually unfair about it. Therefore, your arguments can be applied to any other kit and we would have to remove them because again they offer an advantage in a particular set of circumstances.

    Your last response is inaccurate too. If Mineplex did, hypothetically, add that feature is would be unfair because of the severity of the advantage not because it is probable or improbable. My claim is not that the severity or size of the advantage of Horseman is outweighed by rarity as you seem to think. My point is that circumstances wherein the Horseman actually has its advantages are rare. I would agree with your scenario if Hilt Smash would have a 5% chance of killing someone only when the player with Knight Kit had Full Iron (enchanted with protection 1) and Sharpness 1 Diamond Sword.

    Hence, since the probability that (ii) actually happens is small, it should not be a problem. Now here I come to the final objection, should we stop good players from being able to gain this advantage in the first place? I think not because the size of the advantage is not significant enough for the good players themselves. I think that given the use of optimal strategies in other kits, similarly good results can be achieved. Thus all of the kits offer players just as much of an advantage as your diamond example above: when used very well every kit is OP.

    To Conclude:
    We have looked a two perspective:
    (1) Other players
    (2) The Players using Horseman

    For both Horseman does not offer substantial advantages or problems. It is not a problem for the other player because of the improbability of meeting a Horseman and the improbability of achieving the particular set of circumstances necessary for the Horseman to be effective. It is not an advantage for the Horseman because a good player can achieve equally impressive results using other kits.

    Thus, you would have to show that:
    (1) Horseman has a higher "win probability" for players of similar experience
    (2) The appearance of the Horseman is sufficiently probable to be annoying

    Unless both of these are true, Horseman cannot be considered too overpowered, or worthy of being nerfed or removed.
     
    OP OP
    OP OP Posted Nov 8, 2019
  10. Another bad comparison, for both your Brawler and Barbarian strategies, they require the other player to be at fault, to not foresee the outcome, both of those situations are avoidable. If you see a guy just sitting atop a staircase, then you can realise he potentially has ground pound and might be trying to deal massive damage fall damage, same with Barbarian, if they sit near lava or the edge of a cliff, you can simply not approach and their entire strategy is ruined. There is no equivalent for this with horseman, like I said in my previous posts there is no way to stop a clean up and the 2 options you have against regular bow spammers won't work against horseman bow spammers.

    I've already gone over why in the previous post, there is no counter and they are too good to not have one. There are counters to both your Brawler and Barbarian argument, sure there also isn't really a counter to something like Knight or Assassin, but those kits aren't good enough to warrant even really needing one at all.

    Another thing is that with those 3, they all directly tie into the kit. Whereas horseman is more about enhancing other, existing methods in the game, none of the things I list below are exclusive to horseman yet horseman enhances all of them. Horseman has too many things it's good at.

    -Running Away *
    -Being Chased
    -Cleaning Up *
    -Bow Spamming

    I marked the ones with an * that I don't think make sense to be enhanced by a kit, those are things I feel everyone should have the option too regardless of what kit they choose, if I don't like my odds at winning I should be able to run away and try again later, if I am being smart and aware of my surroundings I should be able to avoid getting cleaned up.

    It's not what I think it's literally what you said, you literally say you think Horseman is fine because of how rare these things happen.
     
    Posted Nov 8, 2019
    leo_thya likes this.
  11. Alright, I will try to address this more systemically.
    You provide four advantages of the Horseman Kit:
    -Running Away
    -Being Chased
    -Cleaning Up
    -Bow Spamming

    The question is then, why are these advantages unfair?
    This could be either because:
    (a) They are frequently deployed on players
    (b) They provide too great of an advantage

    (a) is not true, because Horseman is a rare kit and the necessary circumstances needed to be achieved for (a) to be true are improbable. In this respect, it is certainly true that the low probability stop is from being a problem. Those advantages are used rarely on players in-game because Horseman is not there for most of the time, therefore it cannot be the other players who find Horseman unfair. That is my point when I say that it is okay when it is rare: simply that other SG players cannot be the ones that find Horseman unfair, because they are rarely affected by its advantages. Here I can include the comparison with the Knight "Deathtouch" example. If the Knight had a 5% chance of insta-killing if the Knight had full prot 1 iron and a sharpness 1 sword, then from the point of view of other players, it would change very little since the use of this advantage would hardly ever affect them. A possible objection here would be to say that it is unfair when the strategy is employed on players, but an equivalent can be given for other kits - do not get blown up by the bomber kit when turning a corner. The problem here is that the Horseman only cleans when there is someone to clean- there are other things that have to take place for the player to exploit the kit's advantages!

    (b) is the one that you are talking about. You are arguing that it is unfair because the player using the Horseman has a substantial advantage over other players. My claim here is that you have not actually provided any backing to this claim. I think that I can more plausibly argue that if kits are used to their maximum potential, at the moment, no one kit will have a substantial advantage of any other. To illustrate this with an example: suppose we have two equally good players. These two players know how to use Brawler and Horseman in the best possible way. I think that it is plausible to suppose that both would have a similar win to loss ratio. For your claim to succeed, the win to loss ratio of the player using Horseman would have to be much higher than the ratio of a similarly experienced player using a different kit.

    Therefore, given my two considerations above. To whom is Horseman kit actually unfair?

    Other objections:
    You present other objections that are not directly related to the argument above but that are useful to discuss anyway. You argue that it is the player's fault for being a victim of Brawler or Barbarian. The same can be said for Horseman. The moral of the story is to be mindful of your surroundings and not to get into fights carelessly. You have constructed a set of circumstances when the Horseman is effective and I have done the same for Brawler: if you are running near lava and Brawler ground pounds you in - you are also not able to heal or getaway! This again relates to the point that I made above. Your claim is again as follows:
    -Horseman can be used effectively in a set of circumstances and so is unfair
    My point is that this set of circumstances rarely arises so it is not a problem for other players. The reason that Brawler is not a problem in Aztec Island is that most of the time people are not getting ground pounded into the lava. The same is true for the Horseman when cleaning. It is not a problem because the fact a Horseman can clean once during the game will not affect other players very significantly. Therefore it is not unfair for other players. This can be traced back to my response to the statement (a).

    Your other claim seems to be that it is not possible to ruin the strategy of the Horseman. It is. Don't get into careless fights when a Horseman is nearby. You may claim that that is a lousy piece of advice, but that same can be said of your refutations of the Brawler/ Barbarian. You effectively state - do not get ground pounded or vortexed by the kits. Then it is not a problem. In the same way, I can safely say: do not get cleaned up by Horseman!
    --- Post updated ---
    I actually think that I can side-step even more objections if I split the statements into three separate ones. The Horseman is, thus, unfair, if and only if each of these statements is true:
    (1) The Horseman's advantages are frequently deployed on other players
    (2) In the rare circumstances that they are employed, they affect players too much
    (3) The player using the kit has too much of an advantage

    (1) is false for the same reason that (a) is false above. This is a matter of probability
    (2) is misleading but also false because it depends far too much on the competency of the player. In addition to this, the other things that need to happen for these strategies to be employed are far too great.
    (3) is false because it seems to me that the win/loss ratio of a good player using Horseman is not greater than the win/loss ratio of an equally good player who uses a different kit. Thus Horseman does not offer an intrinsic advantage.

    Therefore, the only condition that is even close to being met is (2). However, even if it were true, it could not provide sufficient grounds for thinking that Horseman is an unfair kit.
    --- Post updated ---
    Sorry to keep adding. But at this point, I wish to substantiate my claim that meeting condition (2) is not enough. Even if Horseman is unfair in a very rare set of circumstances, I think that your claims would be similar to the following hypothetical scenario:
    We should remove Knight completely because if the player obtains full prot 1 iron and a sharp 1 diamond sword, 5% of the time he uses Hilt-Smash, he one-hit kills a player.

    Therefore, it seems to me that you have yet to provide support for (1) and (3). Both of which are necessary to show that Horseman is actually unfair to someone. You have argued for (2) but that at most can show that Horseman is sometimes unfair to a small group of players who unfortunately find themselves in an unlucky set of circumstances; which seems to highly resemble the advantage of brawler/ barbarian in mountain areas.
    --- Post updated ---
    Just to add one final thought.
    We have yet to mention the idea of complementarity. I would argue that the new (and bad) chest tiering system is another issue that has amplified Horseman. Perhaps to reduce the appeal of the kit one could remove the tiering system completely - stop the ridiculous iron loots at mid. Now hear me out on this one:
    (1) Good players are more likely to obtain better loot from spawn than inexperienced players
    (2) The Horseman is used by predominantly good players
    Therefore, Horseman users are more likely to get better loot from spawn. This means that because the introduction of the tiering system has disproportionately benefitted better players, Horseman kit users have benefitted more than other kit users.

    Now, of course, I am biased here because I want the chest tiering system gone completely, but it has clearly added to the problem of the Horseman kit. Before the update, the chance of seeing a very geared Horseman right at the start of the game was low, but now it is much higher.
     
    OP OP
    OP OP Posted Nov 9, 2019
  12. Fair enough.
    --- Post updated ---
    I should mention I still don't agree with you, I just can't be bothered with making any more of these useless posts. In the end you have your opinion and I have mine.
     
    Posted Nov 9, 2019
  13. Why must a kit's strength be determined on how rare it is? A kit's strength is based solely on the kit, nothing else. Using the insta-kill example, it's overpowered regardless of how rare the chance of it happening is. The difference between the insta-kill and Bomber is that one can be countered in a reasonable way, by literally avoiding the TNT. You can't tell players to just avoid the Knight user as that's unreasonable and would be a reason why it's overpowered. When there's a player to clean, the Horseman is able to do it too effectively. You can't just simply run away, you can't just avoid it.

    That's not necessarily true. Win/loss ratio does not always equate to a kit being more overpowered. Factors like luck are involved in the game and you can't accurately determine how strong a kit is, based on a win/loss ratio. Cleaning is a huge part of the game and to counter it, you have the option to run. In the case of a Horseman, you can't.

    The difference is, in the situation of the Brawler, it requires you to be in a very specific location. Unlike that situation, a Horseman can clean up anywhere you are. You can still fight the Brawler without getting thrown in the lava, but in the case of the Horseman, you can't even fight the other player because you would get cleaned by the Horseman.

    Well yeah, any person that hasn't dealt with a certain kit won't have a problem with it, but that doesn't change the fact if a kit does have a problem.

    It's not that the player can't be ground pounded/vortexed, it's that the player shouldn't be ground pounded/vortex when they know they are put in a situation that would lead to their death. And even then, if you choose to fight the other player, you can still avoid it. Like I mentioned above, you can't avoid a Horseman. The only way to not get cleaned up by a Horseman... is to not fight which is why it's seen as too strong.


    (1) As I said, a kit's strength isn't based on how rare it happens.
    (2) Player skill should not be considered in the strength of a kit. I would argue that the situation of when cleaning could happen, is not rare at all. It happens after every fight.
    (3) Win/loss ratio does not equate to how good a kit is as that involves player skill; one player is still always going to be a little better than the other.

    Should be addressed above.
     
    Posted Nov 9, 2019
  14. I will create a separate thread for discussing Horseman so that all the points that I have made can be summarised. I too agree that there have been a number of misunderstandings here that need to be corrected. In many places, I have altered my methodology and thus will have to create a more refined post. Thank you for your contributions. Look out for the next thread, which I hope will not be "useless". I will respond to what leo_thya has said too.
     
    OP OP
    OP OP Posted Nov 10, 2019
  15. I don’t really play survival games on java a lot but I know a little bit about it.

    1. kits: I don’t really know about the kits but I can get why horseman kit is op so maybe nerf it not delete it +1

    Game features: I can get why the chests should have more iron stuff but I don’t think fire aspect would be fair because fire aspect is really annoying alone. The supply drops and loot chests maybe can be changed a bit 0.5

    overall even though some stuff should nerfed/changed I’ll be giving this idea a +1
     
    Posted Nov 10, 2019

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