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Not Planned Change the Appeal System

Discussion in 'General Idea Discussion' started by NoHacksJustGavin, Jan 25, 2020.

?

Should the appeal system change?

  1. Yes

    4 vote(s)
    44.4%
  2. No

    5 vote(s)
    55.6%
  1. Hey guys. I would like to tell you that the appeal system does need to change. It's because being allowed to apologize 3 times is too many chances, as for example, you can appeal for a network ban while guilty 3 times, and I can't take this anymore.
    The solution is to make it so that guilty players can only appeal with a special appeal. This would make it so that they can only apologize once. It's frustrating when hackers get hundreds of chances to play, so that needs to change.

    Thoughts?
     
    Posted Jan 25, 2020
  2. Hey!

    I don't think there's any need for the appeal system to change, as the whole point is that there should be an equal chance for everybody who wishes to mature and put their actions behind them. It is only on very rare occasions that people appeal three times in a row within a short time frame. I'm assuming that this is your concern, as you didn't go into too much detail about it and there's nothing wrong with having three chances at different times in your life to put your actions in perspective and ask for an attempt at redemption. It is quite generous but I do find it just about meets the maximum number of chances that are safe to dole out.

    As for your example, can you honestly see somebody getting network banned three times in a row, submitting an appeal between each occasion? I would be very surprised if it's even happened within the last year or two. If a player is network banned, their actions were most likely a violation of the rules such to the extent that they don't have the best intent on the server. In the case where the player returns and wishes to move past this, they may appeal. If it is accepted, there is a very low chance that they will repeat the offense a further two times and appeal each time. Even I don't have the time for that.
     
    Posted Jan 25, 2020
  3. I don't see a need to change the appeal system. Appeals must fit a very specific criteria in order to be accepted so it would be very difficult for somebody to be un network banned three times. Furthermore, the appeal system is in place for people to learn for their mistakes and ask for forgiveness. I think three is exactly right because it may take multiple times for somebody to fully mature and learn from their mistake.
     
    Posted Jan 25, 2020
  4. Hey there!

    I see where you are coming from with this, and I understand the concern! But you need to remember that not everyone who appeals gets unbanned. There's no guarantee that you will get unbanned if you appeal, so don't worry about a ton of hackers getting unbanned!

    I think that the Forum Ninja's are doing a good job of deciding if someone should get unbanned or not. They know what they're doing, and I don't think that we should change the appealing system. I like the fact that everyone can get a new chance, and everyone deserves to have that opportunity.

    If there were any issues about hackers getting back from punishment, I think that the problem is not in the appealing system, but those who handle the appeals.

    Anyway, I don't think that we should change the appealing system.
     
    Posted Jan 25, 2020
  5. I'm in absolute disagreement here. Players get two sufficient appeals, that doesn't mean they have two apologies. Just because you admit you've done wrong, doesn't mean you're going to get unbanned/unmuted. Especially for NWBs, they take a long time to get appealed, definitely for more than a few months. The third appeal is a form that can only be filled out once, meaning if your appeal isn't good enough, they won't accept it and will remain punished. I think the current appeal system is fine how it is. -1
     
    Posted Jan 25, 2020
    FluteVegetables likes this.
  6. As an ex-Forum Ninja, I think I'm able to give a good view on this: I don't agree. We currently let people get pardoned for two normal punishments. Assuming someone got muted/banned for 30+ days (like for giving malicious threats or flying), they can ask for forgiveness about these issues. The 3rd appeal only comes in when someone has used both of these appeals and are currently permanently banned or muted, and the form can only be sent in once. Because of this, the amount of times that it is used correctly is rare. From this, I usually say that people can ask for forgiveness on two punishments, and the third one is used on very rare circumstances.

    Your argument saying that people can get two different Network Bans and then just unbanned for both. However, this assumption is entirely wrong. Our appeal criteria is completely private, so, while I cannot reveal it, I can tell you that these Network Bans are not easy to get removed from your punishment history, even if you claim to be sorry and won't do it again. Network Bans are serious offenses, so they are administered by the Admin+ team for that reason. Forum Ninjas deal with appeals that are appropriate for their level, but the Forum Ninja Admin is there to help with appeals that need further inspection.

    I'm confused as to what you mean by "It's frustrating when hackers get hundreds of chances to play, so that needs to change." You said yorusef that players get a limited amount of changes to apologize, and after that, they need to remain punished as they have used all their appeals. Yes, players can appeal for unjustified punishments as many times as s/he wants, but there is a limitation on justified punishments. Having only one time to apologize is not something that I am a fan of, especially considering that if you get your account compromised, that is your appeal gone already. I find that keeping it at 2 is the correct move.
     
    Posted Jan 25, 2020
  7. But if you run out of times to appeal justified punishments, using an alt just gives more times to appeal, which gives too many chances, and that's not what we want here.
     
    OP OP
    OP OP Posted Jan 25, 2020
  8. I don't see how limiting number of appeals would change this. If people have alternate accounts to use, then they can just appeal on those too. Changing the appeal limit does not really change that. In the end, people who have loads of accounts do not bother to appeal for all of them; they will just continue to hack on the new accounts.
     
    Posted Jan 25, 2020
    Jaek likes this.
  9. Then I think those specific alts should apply to that specific main as well. This would only go for appealing.
     
    OP OP
    OP OP Posted Jan 25, 2020
  10. I'd just like to understand how you think that we should manage this. It's fairly simple to see if a person has had two justified appeals based on their /ph, but seeing if two people are the exact same people using something like an IP to limit the amount of times that they can appeal isn't something that I am a fan of. I believe it is safer for us to just allow all accounts two punishment appeals (and the special appeal) in order to avoid this.
     
    Posted Jan 25, 2020
  11. There are many reasons why there is a large number of hackers. Though, I don't believe that this is due to the appealing process. Most hackers will not use their time to just appeal their ban that they had clearly hacked to get banned. Of course, there are also requirements that an appeal has to reach. The reason the appeal system isn't the issue in this situation is that hackers often buy compromised accounts for cheap. This would make the accounts disposable to the hacker meaning they can just go on to their next account. Changing the appeal system in my view wouldn't stop the hackers simply because they have alts.

    -1
     
    Posted Jan 25, 2020
    Degagelemming95 likes this.
  12. Let’s say someone gets banned for the wrong reason or they didn’t mean to cause the offense. They have 1 chance to appeal and they mess up, their Mineplex journey is over. The player could be completely innocent but just messed up not knowing how to write an appeal. That’s why it is nice that Mineplex gives players 3 chances. I think the appeal system should stay the way it is.
     
    Posted Jan 25, 2020
  13. yes, even if you get false banned there's a 0.000000000000000000000000001% chance you'll get unbanned-
     
    Posted Jan 26, 2020
  14. Not really. I've submitted 4 appeals where I was falsely banned, and twice I was unbanned. A 50% success rate isn't great, but it's better than what you think.


    As for the suggestion, I have to disagree. The reasoning behind your suggestion is that it will lower the amount of hackers. This is true, but only in the sense that everyone will stop playing Mineplex, hacker or otherwise.

    Imagine, accidentally filter bypassing. Hard to do accidentally, but it can happen. You now have 1 chance, not only to get unmuted, but to ever have a chance to appeal any future punishments. Would you waste that appeal on a mute that only lasts a week? How about a month? A temporary ban?

    The fear is that you will never be able to appeal for anything again. So you keep your 1 appeal close to your chest, and you wait out a month-long ban, mute or other punishment. Why would you come back to Mineplex after the ban?

    Most people wouldn't. A server that gives you genuine fear of appealing is not a place I or anyone else would want to be in.


    You seem to think (correct me if I'm wrong) that you can use alt accounts to appeal punishments on a main account. You can't. Hackers get "hundreds of chances" only in the sense that they can hack on hundreds of alts. This is a problem, but it will be solved by a buff to GWEN, not a radical, controversial and dubious change to the appeal system.
     
    Posted Jan 27, 2020
  15. Jacob pretty much explains why we won't be changing the # of appeals.

    However, as an admin, I thought I'd chime in about NWBs. If someone gets their NWB removed (which is very difficult to do in the first place) and then gets NWB again, the chances of us letting them come back when they clearly haven't learned their lesson is very low. It would take a lot for them to prove they're ready to be in this community again.

    As for hacking bans, what you guys may not know is that a lot of these accounts are compromised alts. The admin team has a system in place to remove compromised accounts from the network so that these hackers can't keep using the same alts they don't have full access to. I understand your frustration with hackers but changing the appeal limit just because they always come back is unfair to the loyal playerbase who may need those appeals in the future.

    I'll be marking this as not planned since the appeal limit won't be changing as of right now.
     
    Posted Feb 1, 2020
    SpamL, Degagelemming95 and jxcb like this.

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