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In Discussion Cake Wars: Java Edition - Suggestions For a More Fun Experience

Discussion in 'Game Alterations' started by Arcrean, Aug 13, 2019.

?

Do you agree with these changes?

This poll will close on Aug 12, 2020 at 7:25 PM.
  1. Yep! All seem fine!

  2. Most of them!

  3. A few of them.

  4. None of them.

Results are only viewable after voting.

  1. Cake Wars: Java Edition

    Suggestions For a More Fun Experience


    As avid players of the game-mode Cake Wars, @DeMotD and I believe that some changes are needed in order to allow for a more fair and fun experience. Cake Wars is an extremely competitive game, and we think that our ideas may sound out of place at first, but our reasoning will help reassure why they are needed.



    1: Re-balancing of Kits

    Warrior:



    Warrior kit is most probably the most underused kit in Cake Wars. Currently, warrior is supposed to give you 3 hearts after a kill. After further testing this seemed a bit inconsistent. We would often get a kill and receive 1 and a half hearts, while sometimes receiving 2, but never 3.


    Even if warrior truly does give you three whole hearts, we believe this ability does not compete with the other abilities different kits have. Warrior is supposed to be useful for staying alive in situations where you have to fight multiple players at once. Let’s say, for example, it is the beginning of a typical standard game and you decided to rush mid. However, you are not the only one rushing the middle, other teams are also rushing it as well. You may be able to capture the point first, however, your chances of surviving three players in a free-for-all fight is very low. In this situation, warrior is supposed to be an extremely useful kit. As long as you keep getting kills, you should survive. But with the current way that damage works in Cake Wars, and the current amount of health you receive after a kill when using the warrior kit, this is not likely to occur. Currently, and iron sword does 2 hearts against a player with leather armor [I bring this up as a player with leather armor and an iron sword is something that you see quite often in the beginning of Cake Wars matches]. One hit from an iron sword, and 66% of the health you gained is gone. Furthermore, that first hit exposes you to a combo and you might as well have gone builder so you could spam platforms and suffocate players to win. Being warrior kit does very little for you in this situation, even though it seems like it should do more.


    The solution to this problem is to fix the health warrior kit receives after a kill. Make it so that the health gained is more constant and reliable, as of right now, it is far from that. We also believe that after attaining a kill, the kit should receive strength 1 for a very small amount of time [a second maybe even less]. As pointed out above, the health given per kill can easily be taken away within one sword swipe. Giving the player strength after receiving a kill [again, for a very short duration] would help balance this. We believe it would make the kit better able to do what it was designed to do, hold its own against multiple players/encounters.



    TL;DR: Warrior kit is not used a lot because it can’t compete against other kits. The kit’s health regeneration should be fixed to be more constant after getting a kill. It should also receive Strength 1 for an extremely short duration [1 second or less] so that it is better able to fight multiple players, which is what we believe the kit was designed for.


    Frosting:


    Frosting Kit has been a point of frustration for many players in the community. The truth is that frosting is the most reliable way to start a combo in Cake Wars and in the hands of a skilled player, can be impossible to counter. We believe the major problems originate from the slowness you receive after getting hit by a snowball. Not only can you be put into a combo from range, it also becomes extremely difficult to escape this combo due to the slowness given. We believe the slowness should reduced to slowness 1 from slowness 2, and the duration may even have to be altered as well. Again, this idea would require a lot of testing. The last thing we want to do is make the achievement kit for the game-mode unusable, but we also wish to make it more balanced.


    TL;DR: Frosting snowballs should give slowness 1 instead of slowness 2 so that players can more easily escape combos.






    2: A Better Catch Up Mechanic


    Cake Wars is a game where beacons are everything, and the amount of time you hold a specific beacon can determine how a game goes. The middle beacon is the most important beacon in the game as this basically gives your team the upperhand in most games. Our idea for a change would be to have the middle still play a pivotal role in games, but allow for teams who are behind to get on a more equal playing field with others. We would like to see a better catch up mechanic to be put in place in terms of late game. We’ve all had our fair share of games where your team may not be able to hold the middle for a sufficient amount of time, and other teams may get upgrades that put your team at a disadvantage.


    As of now, whoever wins a Cake Wars game is essentially always determined by the amount of gear they possess. So, whoever keeps the middle for the longest and holds the most emerald beacons, would most likely win the game. We find ourselves often fighting other teams and protecting ourselves from being rushed, while other teams are able to hold the middle beacon and purchase upgrades. By the time we have defeated the surrounding aggressive teams, we find that the team that was getting stacked while you were fighting has gotten full diamond with full PVP upgrades. Now, it is impossible for you to take the middle beacon alone. Also worth noting that if your teammate rushes the middle with you [if it were a DUOS games], you would be leaving you Cake open for attack. This is a situation many players in the Cake Wars community encounter all the time. Opponents are able to become super powerful, while you are left behind doing your best to get some sort of upgrades.


    Cake Islands:


    Now, currently we believe that Cake Wars is supposed to have some sort of catch up mechanic already in place; the Cake Islands. The Cake Islands often have some sort of resource such as emeralds, bricks and nether stars. These islands may even have weapons such as swords and bows and armor as well. The problem with Cake Islands is that they often give specific resources that a player does not want, to players who do not need them. As far as we are aware, Cake Island spawning is random. So, a team with full diamond could also have a Cake Island spawn close to them while a team struggling to get iron armor may rarely see a Cake Island next to them.


    To fix this issue, Cake Islands should give emeralds/weapons/armor in the beginning of games and then shift towards nether stars as the game progresses. This would not only make it less useful to teams that have full upgrades, but also allows teams that do not have any upgrades a greater opportunity to catch up to their opposing team mates. Keep in mind, there is no way for teams that are struggling in a game to get upgrades besides capturing the middle where they would have to face stacked opposing teams.


    Obviously, this change would need some testing. For one, Cake Islands should not reward players who refuse to rush the middle. However, there should be some way for players who survived constant rushes by other teams, to catch up. Later in the game, these Islands should give small amounts of nether stars and gradually increase until the game ends. This would allow for defensive players to be rewarded for their play-style.



    Nether Star Spawn Rates:


    If the Cake Islands idea does not appeal to many we also believe another solution would be to change Nether Star Spawn Rates. Currently, Nether Stars spawn at a constant rate, however long you hold the middle, only dependent upon the type of Resource generator you have. We believe that Nether Star Spawn rates should be buffed, so that they are way faster when you initially capture the beacon. However, while you hold the beacon as the game progresses, the nether star generation should slow down. Currently, Nether Star generation is approximately 8 seconds per star. We believe that the generation should eventually slow-down to about this, maybe even longer. This idea would require a large amount of testing. Not only would the minimum and maximum time for nether star spawn rates have to be determined and adjusted, the amount of time it takes the generator to slow down to this limit will also have to be changed. We acknowledge that this is a very ambitious idea, but we do believe that if it were to be implemented, the game would be much more balanced and fun.


    Changing Nether Star spawn rates would not only prevent teams who hold the middle the longest from becoming too OP in a short amount of time, it would also allow players who were able to capture the middle [even for a small amount of time] to be able to combat these more aggressive/challenging players.



    TL;DR: Cake Wars is extremely middle based, and typically whoever holds the middle the longest, wins the games. It also becomes extremely difficult to capture the middle, when another team has held for a long time [due to PVP upgrades]. We have two possible solutions that could help:





      • Cake Islands should give nether stars more often than other items towards the end of games. This gives players who were struggling to capture the middle a better chance for upgrades and survival.
      • Nether star generation should be buffed, and become faster when initially capturing the middle generator, however, the generation speed should slow down as one continues to hold the middle. Not only does this prevent players from becoming too OP too quickly, but it also gives players who were able to capture the middle [for even a short amount of time] a better chance to fight a dominating team.





    3: Little QoL changes that can make the game more fun (:

    • In Cake Wars, games that tend to be longer are the games that gain you the most experience. This however, doesn’t reward players who are able to complete games in short amounts of time. For example, if you go into a game of Duos and finish it around 3-5 minutes, you’d only get 300 to 600 experience. But, if you were to win a cake rot game, the experience tends to be around 2000 to 3000. This should be changed so that it takes into account the amount of players and the time it took for the game to complete. Sometimes, games don’t tend to fill up all the way, leading to games where teams are completely missing. This means games go by faster and players should be receiving less experience than they would in a full game. However, if one were to complete a Cake Wars match quickly in which most [if not all] teams are occupied, they should receive more experience.
    • Winstreaks should increase the amount of experience you receive. We feel like this should occur for all games, not only Cake Wars. Of course there should be a maximum limit but as of now, winstreaks do not affect the rewards you gain.
    • Send the game into Cake Rot when the last two teams both do not have a cake or allows compasses to be obtainable once all Cake are gone. It seems a bit redundant to have all Cakes but having to wait for Cake Rot in order to fight someone.


    We feel as these changes could prove beneficial to the game-mode and to the player base. We look forward to discussion below on these ideas. It would also be nice to hear everyone’s suggestions that they may have on the game-mode! Thank you for reading!


    Changes/Suggestions Offered by Community
    In order for your idea to be placed here, it must receive some support from other community members or we think it would be beneficial to the game-mode.

    Suggestion by @TooMuchXMas4You :
    Instead of receiving strength, the health regenerate per kill would be determined by the amount of kills you have had previously in the game. The health regenerated would be reset after dying.

    Suggested by @Xukuri : After being held for some time, the middle beacon [and maybe even all beacons] should be able to be captured faster by another team. For example, if Blue team captured and help the middle beacon for quite some time, red team should be able to capture that beacon in less time than Blue team initially took to capture the beacon.


     
    Posted Aug 13, 2019,
    Last edited Aug 15, 2019
  2. Overall I agree with these changes but there are a few changes I've just brainstormed that I'd like to add.

    1. Warrior could get 2/3 hearts back instantly upon a kill i.e. like an instant health potion. This would have a greater impact on a prolonged fight and it could turn the tides of a fight, more so than the slow regeneration. Also, they could start with 1 or 2 more hearts in order to make them more tanky. The kit is based around melee fights so this would be a suitable advantage to make them have more of an impact in the game.

    2. With regards to the issue of nether star generation and controlling middle beacon being crucial, perhaps the longer a team controls mid beacon (and potentially the emerald beacons as well), the quicker it takes for another team to capture that beacon. This could make it easier to combat teams who have many nether star upgrades. This would be ***ulative over the course of the game, so I think this would definitely work as a comeback mechanic.
     
    Posted Aug 13, 2019
  3. I agree with a good majority of what you said but two things I don't like; strength in any capacity, no matter how short. I completely agree that warrior is under powered rn (and imo archer is too), but I think fixing the regen to 3 hearts on kill is
    sufficient.
    The second is the catch up stuff. I think keeping the mid beacon important is a good way to incentivize exciting gameplay, rather than generator camping. I don't want it to be easy for a team to just ignore mid, camp full diamond and then come back and get the upgrades quickly. Rather than make mid less important, I agree with @Xukuri 's suggestion of making capture times shorter the longer a team has had a beacon.

    I really am a fan of the QOL changes though, would be great to see WS have some use other than bragging rights.
     
    Posted Aug 13, 2019
    NothinButNetYT, Xukuri and DeMotD like this.

  4. In my opinion, I do agree with some of these changes being put in place. One of the ones I agree with most is rebalancing the kits. The frosting kit is very op and needs to be nerfed. I never use warrior because its harder to rush without starting wool but that is just me. The win streak changes would be cool, but I do not think the other changes(XP and Cake rot changes,) would be necessary. Lastly, I agree about nether stars being buffed to 2 automatically, but I do not think it should be too op considering that would make a lot of people who rush mad(I like to rush mid sometimes.)
     
    Posted Aug 13, 2019
  5. I really do like these suggestions! I think allowing the the middle beacon to be captured faster faster if a team was holding it for a long time is a great idea and would be a nice addition to the proposed changes we listed.

    Your ideas for warrior kit are certainly interesting but the only thing I’m worried about is that the implementation of the 2/3 immediate regeneration and 2 extra hearts would be a bit too over powered. Of course, we will never know unless it goes through testing and I’d be really interested to see how it will influence the kit.


    I understand where you are coming from with the strength and we knew that it would be a source of worry. I’d like to see some other opinions though before we completely eliminate it.

    I also see what you mean when you say that you don’t wish for players to get full diamond then be able to rush the middle and immediately become fully stack, however, I don't really see this become an issue. Capturing the middle will still become an excellent way to get ahead in the game [and still probably remain the main way to catch up]. This is because nether stars are the only way to gain faster generators and often when players go out to capture the middle, they also capture the surrounding emerald generators. So, whoever captures the middle first and whoever holds it will still have an advantage, but it will be lessened as players who are able to capture the beacon after would more easily catch up. The middle will still remain pivotal to the game and be an excellent way to progress. I also don't see a less 'mid-centric' game as a bad thing. I think Cake Wars could really benefit from having fights occur on players islands vs. always at the middle and honestly I have most of my encounters in Cake Wars on player islands anyways.
     
    OP OP
    OP OP Posted Aug 13, 2019
    Xukuri likes this.
  6. Heyo!
    As being a huge Cake Wars fanatic myself, I do believe it is time for the game to receive updates such as these. While new items are great and all, I feel the game should become more balanced before anything else. However, here are some things I'd like to point out.

    Starting out with the first section, I definitely do not think strength should ever be added into the game. Strength is very overpowered, especially with a sharp 2 diamond sword with leather armor alone could easily spawn camp players or destroy a duo or trio of full iron. To substitute however, I think the higher kill streak you get on the higher reward is given. For example, if you have 5 kills in a row, it will boost it up by half a heart. If you die, it will reset back to 2-3. If you get no kills and 5 deaths in a row, it goes back down .5 so 1.5 regained from each kill, something like that to encourage players to rush more and have their kits boosted.

    I believe you should have touched base more on the archer kit as well, as that definitely does need a buff too as stated above. Something that should maybe be increased with it could be maybe the strength arrows that zombie kit receives in Super Smash Mobs? Or possibly a 25% chance to spawn with a bow on death (without a rune), as that may be beneficial to the kit. One more thing that could change is how the shredder kit arrows work in Turf Wars, that way it would just give a better reason to use the kit.

    Builder IMO is fine, however I do think the kit should receive the "wool walls" in the item shop as well after every 15-30 seconds as well. I know these aren't things discussed on your thread, just leaving something for you to ponder about.

    As for the Frosting kit, I don't think these changes would be the best to add. Maybe having a feature where 10-25% of the time one of your snowballs becomes corrupted (so it doesn't throw) or decreasing the time to receive the snowballs. You can obtain speed potions from cake islands, which can be used against this kit easily, along with bows and such. Maybe after using a couple of snowballs it would lower down to slowness 1, just so it would give the players a better advantage.

    Now for the second part of this thread, I completely agree with the first part about making the playing fields more balanced out. Not every player is the best, and it can be unfair when you've had no upgrades the whole game and get rushed by protection 3 sharp 2 diamond players. The part I don't agree with is when you stated that at the start, better armor and materials should be given out. I know that I'm basically saying the same thing, but I think it is better to give more materials at the start (nether stars, emeralds, and bricks) to make it a fight to obtain whatever is in the cake islands towards the start. Towards the end, it would be more beneficial to add more weapons and things like that since it will matter towards the later fights, and the resources won't as much since by then you should have max everything (incorporating what I said in the last sentence). Also having more spawn towards the start and less spawning at the end would be a good idea as well.

    As for the next part, I don't really personally agree with this at all. Why would the game give you a nerf for doing good and holding middle the whole game? I think initially it should be slow, but the more you hold it, it should be faster. This would solve the issue of players being too stacked, as their star count would roll in slow, giving players the chance to make the rush and head in. Also, star stacking is a thing too, so even if you don't hold middle for long, as long as all of your team mates are on the generator, you still would get a lot anyways (what I mean by this is if it were to be fast at the start, every team mate could be on the gen and get stacked in under a minute, opposing to my idea which would be to make it slower until you have held it for a certain amount of time).

    The start of the Nether Stars could be 10-15 seconds (to make things slower), and as time passes, speed up to about 5-7 seconds as a reward for being able to hold middle with other teams competing as well. There are also different ways to obtain stars, such as camping at a team's generator while they have middle, eliminating teams with nether stars (could take them out of their chests if they had any), or as mentioned before, cake islands. So with these factors in mind, players can get stacked without having middle held for a long time to combat the unfair advantages.

    Moving on to the third idea in your post, everything seems fine and I agree entirely.

    Sorry if this was all over the place, I don't have a lot of time, just some things to consider to your idea. Hope I helped!
     
    Posted Aug 13, 2019
    Xukuri likes this.
  7. Having random chance mechanics does not make good design in my opinion. How awful would it feel to lose a game because your snowball didn't work due to no fault of your own? I've never played frosting so this is a completely uninformed opinion, but perhaps the generation of snowballs could be decreased because what I find the most annoying is when people spam snowballs and almost stun-lock you.
     
    Posted Aug 14, 2019
    PapiKirito and TooMuchXMas4You like this.
  8. I find the ideas that you've proposed in this thread very interesting and ,as a cakewars player , I think that I should give my opinions after analysing them one by one:

    -Warrior kit: I agree that the warrior is underused and very weak compared to other kits. Like you said, a solution to this problem would be to make it instantly regenerate 3 hearts after every kill but when you say that it should receive strenght, I have to disagree because strenght is extremely overpowered and could change the outcome of a fight after a single hit.

    -Frosting kit: I've never used the frosting kit in a fight but I fought it several times and there are people who don't know how to efficiently use the kit, which are easy to defeat even with slowness, and people who become untouchable after hitting you with the snowball. In my opinion it would be nice to reduce the effect but the duration shouldn't be changed.

    -Nether star spawn rate: I definitely agree with adding more netherstars in cakes but I disagree with your idea of increasing the spawnrate at the beginning because it would pose an immense advantage to the first team that conquers the center.

    -I agree with the QoL changes that you proposed because they don't have any downside and would certainly make the game more entertaining.

    Overall, I'm going to vote the "Most of them" options.
    -M3k
     
    Posted Aug 14, 2019
  9. This may be a better idea than what we've proposed here. A lot of people are against the strength idea, so we'll be changing it. I like this one a lot more and it would definitely allow Warrior to become a better kit. @Arcrean and I will be updating the post to add your suggestions!

    I agree with this to an extent. The reason I didn't want to touch Archer kit in the first place was due to the circumstances that lead to it being how it is currently. It was pretty OP initially, and took some time to be where it is now. It already works like the shredder kit in Turf Wars I believe, but the other suggestions here can work. Perhaps every 15-30 seconds, the player gets access to a buffed arrow/bow for a short period of time?

    The issue with this idea is that adding in probability becomes unfair to Frosting kit players. If one Frosting player goes against another, it could become a matter of who's snowball doesn't fail to have an effect. Reducing the effect and maybe even the time is a better idea at the moment.

    The reason we've laid it out like this is so players that tend to play defensively and tend not to capture mid as much could have a chance late game, against players with much stronger upgrades. If we do it how you're suggesting, it could be interesting as well. There would be another major focus point along with mid. But then, it might become a matter of who has a Cake Island spawn nearest to them first. We'll discuss this a little bit more before considering how we want to combat these issues.

    I'll have to apologize for this one being a little less thought out, as me and @Arcrean are CW Duos players, where star stacking is a lot less common. We think that our idea works better for duos since it tends to be one player at base and one player going for mid. But I can see where you're coming from as a Fours player, where this could be a bad change. I think your idea works a lot better for fours, and we'll be discussing this a little more.

    I'll be replying to more feedback later!
     
    Posted Aug 14, 2019
    TooMuchXMas4You likes this.
  10. Yeah, a lot of the community does not agree with giving strength. We will most probably modify the post to implement @TooMuchXMas4You 's idea and have the amount of health regenerated based on the number of kills you received. As for the frosting kit, we meant for the duration to be changed only if reducing the slowness did not balance the kit.

    The reason we suggested this idea is because we believed that having a faster nether star spawn rate when initially capturing the middle beacon would help teams that are falling behind and have not been able to capture the middle beacon. TooMuchXMas4You brings up a valid point when questioning why should someone who has done a good job holding the middle be punished for doing so. The problem with this statement is that once certain upgrades are achieved, it does not become difficult to hold the middle. His suggestion of reversing our idea and having nether star spawn rate start slow then increase is very interesting. One of the main problems I see with this idea is it could become a sort of snowball effect. Once the middle generator is held for a certain amount of time, opponents would struggle to defeat you with your PVP upgrades and you'd be gaining materials faster than ever with the proper resource generator upgrade. Maybe the solution is not to change generator speeds and instead to fix Cake Island spawning so that they function as a proper catch up mechanic.

    Thank you all for your opinions! We will definitely be taking them into account.
     
    OP OP
    OP OP Posted Aug 15, 2019
    TooMuchXMas4You and Xukuri like this.
  11. Yuuuh!
    I very much agree with these prospective changes and feel that they would be appropriate to add within the game :D
    Let's start with the kits. Obviously, we know that Strength 1 is very powerful and that this idea has been scrapped for a method that takes kills into account, but I feel that Cake Wars in itself is very much a team game; what if the Warrior kit healed as an AOE effect, boosted by the number of teammates that you're backed by?
    Let's say your default is determined by kills, just as mentioned by @TooMuchXMas4You, but then this number could also be boosted by 0.5 for you if one player is within three blocks of your rage. When you get a kill, they also gain that 0.5 HP and this number rises linearly as you add players. This would very much encourage team fights and allow players to possibly take on other teams with better gear. Note that a quick balance to this could be to have it not stack between multiple Warrior users if it were to become too powerful.
    Other than that, I'd say the rest of the thread is very straightforward.
    Section 3. which contains the QoL changes talks of an instant Cake Rot when two teams without cakes are left. I would instead suggest the command similar to the old SG "/dm" that, when used, started deathmatch if multiple players agreed to it.
    The reason players wait out this period is to get gear in order to stand on an equal playing ground during the final fight, a command such as "/cr" ('cr' for "Cake Rot"), would allow players to choose whether or not to start the final phase of the game if, for example, half of the players in that game agree to do so. This gives them the option to either loot or instantly start CR.
    The reasoning for this is that having an instant CR when both cakes are down could mean an easy win for the team that's capped mid for the longest amount of time/has better gear at that moment. Those extra 5-8mins that are usually left for the final two teams allows them to prepare to the highest degree before engaging in combat.
    As aforementioned, though, these changes are very welcomed and I'd love to see these set in place to improve the nature of the game. Most of these seem very do-able and are very simple changes that will have a good positive effect on the game <3
     
    Posted Aug 18, 2019 at 6:53 PM
    TooMuchXMas4You and Xukuri like this.
  12. I disagree with most of this. Cake Wars is a pretty balanced game, with it definitely not being dependant upon the gear of players. I'm able to spawn and kill a full iron player with me just having full leather and a wooden sword. It's simply skill. Holding mid is a key part of the game and should be the only reliable way to gain Nether Stars, so making it not as important would kind of defeat the purpose of "fighting over the control of mid". Cake Islands are perfect just the way they are and don't need more Nether Stars than they already have.

    Warrior is an easy kit to play with great rewards. 3 hearts back is a huge advantage, especially if you're guarding another team's base and your teammates are mining or when you get 2v1ed. Warrior is viable just how it is and will become even better once Frosting is nerfed (they're just removing slowness completely). I guess they should fix the 3 hearts not being given (if it's an actual thing) but otherwise, nothing else.

    XP given for streaks is not something that we want. Sure, it sounds good on paper, but you'll have so many stat boosters getting win streaks to get tons of XP. Also, a player shouldn't have to lose a huge boost because of a hacker, which can be quite common in a game like Cake Wars. This would cause a ton of outrage from players as they would lose their streak bonus and lose the XP boost.

    XP given is fine how it is. Of course, you'll get less XP if you play for 5 minutes instead of 20 minutes. It's actually pretty balanced in my opinion. If you get 500-600xp in 5 minutes and 2000-3000 for a 30-minute game, it's really balanced. XP is mostly given for time played. You'll also get some more from winning and getting game gems.
     
    Posted Aug 21, 2019 at 9:15 AM,
    Last edited Aug 21, 2019 at 5:30 PM
    Xukuri likes this.
  13. Hia!

    I really like playing Cake Wars. I think that this should be implemented, as this would make the game more, fair.
    Overall, I think this was such a great idea. Also, I give you credit on probably how much time it took you writing this.
    Thank you!
    -Knazamn
     
    Posted Aug 22, 2019 at 11:39 AM
    IwIBrriar likes this.
  14. Hi, I love playing cake wars. I think that your ideas are really interesting and should be applied to the game. +1 for me
     
    Posted Aug 22, 2019 at 3:59 PM

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