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In Discussion Bring Back Castle Siege [Evidence Regarding Its Justified Revival]

Discussion in 'New Game Discussion' started by Danese, May 1, 2020.


Would You Want CS To Be Brought Back?

  1. Yes!

    337 vote(s)
  2. Maybe...

    32 vote(s)
  3. No.

    39 vote(s)
  1. After Dan's last post, I reached out to him via. discord, and talked about some of the points that have been raised. There were a few more things I would've liked to discuss, but overall we both enjoyed it, despite how passionate we are on the subject. This is just a quick reminder that I'm up to talk about anything I've said, and nothing I do is done with malice.

    Apologies if I came off in a different way.

    Ultimately I want what's best for the server. Who wouldn't like a classic gamemode to make a comeback? This post is simply a collection of reasons why this goal isn't as close as we would like.

    In conclusions, the timer slowing down is not an issue, and this is certainly the wrong way to improve the gamemode. Here's why:

    From scoreboard timers to mob AI, Minecraft very rarely counts time with seconds. Instead, it counts 'ticks', and 20 ticks are created each second. So if you're trying to do something (like decrease the time until Defender victory) every half a second, you wait 10 ticks, instead of 500ms as you might think.

    This is done for reasons I'm not able to explain (and barely understand haha), so you're just going to have to accept it.

    However, when the server is overloaded, it might only manage 15 ticks per second (TPS). But the timer is still waiting 10 ticks before going down. In other words: the game timer runs 25% slower, and consequently the Defenders have to hold the choke points for 25%.

    This is where Dan and the CSGI team got concerned - if the Defenders have to hold their positions for 25% longer, the game becomes even more one-sided, and they have to re-balance the game. But here's the thing: This has no effect on who wins the game. No action needs to be taken.

    The reason is actually rather simple - everything depends on the TPS. everything slows down by 25%. The Defenders might have to hold choke points for 25% longer, but it takes the Undead 25% longer to even reach those points. Both teams attack 25% slower and take 25% longer to place and destroy fences. Both teams take 25% longer to draw back their bows. Everything slows down at the same rate, so this 'bug' doesn't change which team wins and which one loses.

    I'm glad you brought this up, because it perfectly plays into my argument. It's a brilliant example of an issue which highlights a way the community can change.
    Comme d'hab, the issue isn't with the game, it's the players. You think so yourself.

    I admit, it's not a perfect comparison, but the core theme is the same - sweaty parties destroy a game, but the game shouldn't be updated to accommodate - and I agree. If the CS community can stamp out sweaty parties (and certain exploits, and stop having all the best players on the Undead side) without developer assistance, you have just proven how the CS community is simply more positive and altruistic than the single biggest game on the Java server, being CW.

    That's an extraordinarily impressive achievement for an MPS-only game. Why not work towards it?

    Wishing you good luck, KerbalBoy and Amir Blumenfeld.
    Posted Feb 23, 2021
    Jet Starglaze likes this.
  2. Wait so he is banned for whatever reason (does not matter) therefor his opinion does not matter? Even if he is trying to better the server?
    Posted Feb 23, 2021
    KerbalBoy likes this.
  3. he's a hacker. he hacks on alts all the time, so ofc his opinion doesn't matter.
    Posted Feb 23, 2021
    Young_Inventor likes this.
  4. You can argue that someone who has been banned should have less of a say over what happens in the server, and many people will agree with you.

    However, the arguments put forward here were dismissed on the grounds that the person who presented the arguments is banned, which contributes little to the discussion, has no effect on the game, and doesn't disprove Ned's points.

    I fully support logical debate here and elsewhere - it encourages change and growth in the server, games and players - but the fact of the matter is currently, the points raised have been ignored. If you disagree with them, say why! Proving your opponents wrong strengthens your cause.

    Good luck, from KerbalBoy and Jope
    Posted Feb 23, 2021
    Jet Starglaze and Young_Inventor like this.
  5. My own opinion on this is more based off of the damage he deliberately did to the CS community for kicks while he was a part of it. Since then he has become increasingly salty and toxic and uses alts to try and unleash havoc within our discord or in our games. This is either because he still enjoys targeting a specific community or because he has little understanding that his ban from both Mineplex and the Castle Siege community within Mineplex is as a result of his actions.

    Based on his past actions I do not believe that ned wants the best for Mineplex and only wants what's worst for Castle Siege.
    If ned does come across this and finds my interpretations are untrue he can feel free to dm me on discord and we can have a civilised conversation. Until then we will consider his arguments as the bitter ramblings of an internet troll with nothing better to do.
    Posted Feb 23, 2021
  6. To elaborate on this and clarify for anyone who hasn't read my responses on various other threads....

    Yes, I did say (and still believe) that the root of the falling player counts on CS during the holidays was pub-stomping and the skill gap; it was more of a personal observation through playing the game myself, and I saw both regular CS players and others stacking one team of the other. To address some of the other things I've said in other posts and on other threads:

    (Click headings to read the posts I address)

    1. I stated that pub-stomping is an issue, but that preventing players from playing in a party is a bad idea because of the nature of team games.
    This is a statement that I believe is true across the entire network. Mineplex has a high concentration of sweaty players, so the argument has been made that CS won't bring in anyone new, however CS did bring back players from previous years when it was live. People who still keep up with the server despite not playing actively would be attracted by the return of a beloved game. I actually came back after a two-year break, and since returning I've been far more active within the community than before; there's no reason the same can't be true of others who are attracted back to Mineplex from other servers for one of the network's original games: Castle Siege.

    2. I think the reason for the large skill gap between old and new players is a result of CS being unplayable for a long time.
    Of course people who have been practicing CS gameplay for months will play better than new players or those who haven't played in years. As I stated above, a skill gap exists across the entire network, but this was exacerbated by CS being MPS only for years. If the game is made permanent, casual players will be able to learn the game over time, and CSGI is discussing things like in-chat tips (which existed in 2017) to help anyone who joins learn the basics of the game. Eventually, casual players will learn the game the same way sweats have; this has actually happened in our MPS's over the past few months.

    3. CS being live for a limited time motivated CS sweats to win farm for their stats.
    If CS is a permanent game, the grind for achievements and sweats wouldn't be so pressing. From personal experience, I had been waiting three years to finish getting all of the CS achievements, so that took priority for me in the weeks CS was back during the holidays. I know plenty of other people who were in the same boat, and even more of us were grinding wins on undead because we knew we'd only be able to gain stats for a short time. If that time limit is eliminated by making CS a permanent game, the motivation for win farming would be largely diminished.

    4. Lobby dodging allowed for teams that were largely unbalanced, killing lobbies.
    Even as a CS sweat, being on the winning side of pub-stomping was only fun the first couple of times. It feels great to win, but winning without a challenge isn't fun for me, and I'm sure others feel the same. There will always be people who love getting wins for their stats and grinding to get on the leaderboards, and in a team-oriented game like CS, this can ruin the experience when sweats who get the wrong team leave at the start of the game to avoid getting a game played in their stats (stat-dodging). As I said in my other post, removing this capability will likely upset a large portion of the competitive player base. However, that doesn't mean steps shouldn't be made to help the issue. @KerbalBoy mentioned that the game itself shouldn't be altered because of the player base, and in terms of gameplay, I agree. That being said, things like adding a game played when the game starts to discourage stat-dodging would go a long way towards incentivizing players to stay, even if they don't get the team they want. After all, if they're guaranteed a game played regardless, why not try their best to win?

    All in all, I think CS is slowly moving towards a place where our CSGI members can say we're satisfied with the state of the game. At the present moment, I think the game is relatively well-balanced in terms of kits, armor, maps, and other things that directly impact gameplay. The issues, in my opinion, are server-wide problems, like pub-stomping and stat-dodging, that affect all games; CS is merely a game that displays these most obviously because of its larger player count per lobby. Nevertheless, there's been numerous discussions within the community about taking steps to balance lobbies, and while it isn't perfect, it's undeniable that we're passionate about the game, and the experiences of players in our community have proven that CS not only can bring old players back to the server, but it can also attract new ones through publicity events like live streams, which also benefits Mineplex as a whole.

    EDIT: The CS community hosts regular competitive scrimmages in MPS's that are a good way for highly competitive players to practice their skills and sweat the game. If CS was to be revived, none of us are entirely sure what the next step for our competitive league (CSCL) would be, but it would certainly provide an outlet for sweats to play intensively without pub-stomping casual players if it continued as is. There are, of course, people who play to grind stats, but considering we currently have an active MPS community (with no stats), this won't be the majority once most of us have the achievement kit unlocked (a motivation for pub-stomping over the holidays).

    That being said, I agree that we as a community should work towards decreasing pub-stomping, but the truth is, the conditions around CS's temporary revival were a main motivation for it, and a few of us even discussed this in the final days of CS being live. I still believe that, once time limitations and the pressure to reach milestones is reduced, pub-stomping will decrease on its own, though anything we can do to help will be beneficial.
    Posted Feb 23, 2021,
    Last edited Feb 23, 2021
    SALB Music likes this.
  7. i cba to look through 27 pages of responses. Just gonna say that CS will fail. During it's temporary "revival" via Holidays it got what, 140 players? feel free to double check my claim. This will only go down, mineplex isn't known for updating it's games (look at Bridge and well most if not all arcade games). Yes you can say that with the devs that were brought back that weren't here in the years previous will update the many games that have not received attention in years, My question for you is what makes you think that CS will be successful when, when this server had a much higher playerbase the game itself died out still. Look at UHC, it had players for a solid week, or 2 or maybe 3. Stretching it maybe a month. Not long after, the game flopped, with only a small sweaty community to back up the playerbase of the game.

    Bringing back an old game versus just creating a new game based off of what happened to UHC, will evidently not be successful.
    Posted Feb 23, 2021

  8. All movement and item-based actions (such as drawing back a bow) are done client-side. You can still walk around and swing your sword if everyone else is frozen. This means that unless you are having severe lag issues on your end, your movement or actions are not affected by the server tps. The tps lag only effects server side actions. In this case, the timer is linked to the tps, but if randomstickspeed was set to true it would also effect that or any other tick-based world actions such as mob spawning.
    Posted Feb 23, 2021
    miraclebuilder19 and Fusafez like this.
  9. @anthony. I honestly wonder when the day will come that this community never see this old and outdated argument again. And our response is the same as usual. CS is unique while UHC is not. CS or a CS equivalent is unavailable on any other server as far as i am aware and this is what makes it a unique selling point to bring back old and bring in new players to the Mineplex network.
    Furthermore your own admission that you have not read through this thread and therefore your lack of acnowledgement for our own points regarding the player counts CS has obtained through our #ReviveCS community MPS and the Christmas CS event makes your claim that "what 140 players?" seems insignificant somewhat dubious.
    Finally Castle Siege has it's own Community Content Team that works with Mineplex to provide new maps that keep the gameplay varied and interesting. Once the game's basic gameplay is set all CSCC has to do is balance it through careful map planning and building. Examples of such maps built by CSCC for CS are Rosebud, San Marino, Whetstone Keep, Mythical Palace, & Temple of Anubis.
    Posted Feb 23, 2021
    EpicEnderDragon1 and Fusafez like this.
  10. Heyo!

    Personally, this is a -1 for me. I never really enjoyed the game and I found that it would get quite repetitive and it was never really an eye catching game for me. I understand that it was some peoples childhood and maybe I should give the game a second chance but for now its still a -1

    Have a wonderful day!
    Posted Feb 23, 2021
  11. For essentially all purposes, the only things that aren't affected by TPS are fully client-side operations, such as making dropped items spin and displaying beacon beams. All movement and item-based actions are originally done client-side, but all this information has to be sent to the server, which then processes it, with a delay depending on the tick speed.

    Until the server processes this information, and sends the updated information back to every other player, none of your actions really exist - during those lag spikes, you can move around with no limits, but according to the server, you haven't moved at all. And according to every other player, you've stayed in the same spot.

    According to the Technical Minecraft Wikia, the following updates happen, in order, each tick:
    • The server receives all the information (packets) from each player
    • The server processes all player requests (block placements, removal, toggling etc)
    • Decide the weather
    • Spawn wild mobs
    • Increase the total world time by 1 (and day/night time if gamerule doDaylightCycle is true)
    • Run scheduled updates
      > This causes an update chain until everything that can update now is updated
      > Only 1,000 scheduled updates (called tileTicks) can be processed per tick [excluding tileTicks created that tick that should be processed in the same tick]
    • Relight chunks
    • Create tileEntities for all blocks that were queued to create tileEntities (most tileEntity blocks, including pistons, don't do this queuing) and don't have tileEntities in them already
    • Create thunder
    • Create ice and snow
    • Send random block updates
    • Update player position, collision, send packets to all players (including the one being processed) about a player's position and block modifications
    • Run the village logic
    • Manage village raids
    • Portal fixes
    • Perform block events until there are none. All block events are processed whenever the next block event processing calls are made (mostly on the same tick; Could be the next tick if caused by entities or tileEntities). Block events could be pistons, beacons, mob spawners and a few other blocks
    • Update weather entities
    • Update loaded entities, and unload if they're dead
    • Every tickable tileEntity is updated
      > Old ones are removed
      > New ones are created
    • Send out packets to all players

    In layman's terms, player position, collision, block placements and modifications are changed each tick. If the tick speed slows down, all of a player's movements, changes to blocks (such as placing and destroying fences), and any bows drawn back (which is really just digging a block with your right mouse button while holding a bow) are all slowed down.

    And they all slow down at the same rate.

    The TPS slowing down makes the game last longer, and that's it. Everything will slow down, but at the same rate, so the chances of a certain team winning stays the same.
    The only consequences of this is that a boring round may be dragged out even further, but the solution to this is either decrease the performance impact of the game, dedicate more resources to the game, or balance the game to the point where the game isn't dull to begin with.

    Good luck, KerbalBoy and Scaulbylausis Jim.
    Posted Feb 24, 2021
    Jtj likes this.
  12. every other game on this server is unique. Your point?
    My point in my "what 140 players" comment is when this server had this unique game called castle siege, when this server had a much higher playerbase the game still died.
    "Community Content Team" ok so you make maps for a game is all I'm getting from this, who cares? The community makes maps for many other games.

    Introductions of new maps, and the return of a game will no doubt have some amount of "hype". I'm sure there will be several active lobbies open. I'm also sure that this flame will die out as it did with UHC.

    You made the arguement about how UHC is not unique while CS is, I beg to differ. Mineplex UHC has several different characteristics that make it unique. Even if you still want to call UHC a common gamemode, can't Castle Siege be argued in the same way? It's basically CTF minus the having to capture bit. You have kits, and trying to get to your opponents side while defending your own side. The only unique thing about this game is it's name, it's setting and the varying kits.
    Posted Feb 24, 2021
    Jtj likes this.

  13. just tested sprinting at 20 tps vs 7 tps and it took me around 9-10 seconds to run 50 blocks both times. If tps did effect movement as you said it did, it should have taken me at least 20 seconds to run the 50 blocks when the tps was 7. It didnt. As I said before, tps doesn't effect movement

    Posted Feb 24, 2021,
    Last edited Feb 24, 2021
    miraclebuilder19 and Jtj like this.
  14. Literally every single word stated here... I've had QaT members confirm that all of this is wrong. Just... wrong. And this is exactly what I said in our DM's...

    And that's why you will never understand how the game can be viable...

    Same thing I said above in this message...

    Ned continues to join on hundreds- neigh thousands- of alternate accounts solely to hack, spew out racism, ***ism, hate speach, etc., and you're seriously arguing that he's trying to better the server?

    Top 10 games you can find over on other servers from the 2015 era (should they still exist), whether it be identical or slightly modded!

    1. Cake Wars (You're probably expecting me to say bed wars... But I'd prefer to say one of the more OG's: Money Wars)
    2. Mixed Arcade (There are a LOT of games regarding fast-paced minigames in a randomized order everywhere)
    3. Block Hunt (Prop Hunt [I first played this game over on the hive])
    4. Survival Games (Survival Games)
    5. Skywars (Skywars)
    6. The Bridges (originally known as The Walls from the 2013 Minecraft Map era, though there was a bridges variant [not too sure which came first to be honest])
    7. UHC (I should have put this one first but ah well. Game's present on a lot of networks but somehow is doing quite poorly on Mineplex.)
    8. Master Builders (build battle)
    9. Super Spleef (Spleef)
    10. Runner (TNT run - Originally a fun thing you would do in, like, alpha or beta with pressure plates. point is it's on a lot of servers in some form)

    I'd spend time arguing your other points, but you won't be bothered to read them the first times I posted them. So why would I?

    Fair points, though if Cake Wars were in this position, and I argued this exact point, I know a lot of users who are passionate towards Cake Wars would be in the same boat our community is currently in.

    And yes that is a fair analogy. I am completely ignoring everything about cake wars while I say that, as well as those who enjoy it.
    OP OP
    OP OP Posted Feb 24, 2021,
    Last edited Feb 24, 2021
  15. If you have multiple people who have technical reasons why I'm wrong, I'd love to hear them. Would you mind posting their reasoning here?

    3 points to make here.

    1) I typed "Does tps affect player movement?" into google and these are the first three results I got: (the fourth result was about cars, and the fifth never mentioned movement)

    2) Your method of showing the TPS is unverifiable - we can't actually tell whether the TPS shown in the tablist was the correct TPS. Ideally, you would have done ALT + (FN) + F3 to show the actual tickrate.

    3) What happened is exactly what I said would happen!

    You can run around freely, and you will see yourself move at normal speeds. According to the server, you would still have moved 0.25 blocks per tick (5 blocks a second if there are 20 ticks a second) but the time between those ticks has increased. From the server's point of view, and more importantly the view of other players, you have moved slower than 5 blocks per real-world second.

    KerbalBoy and Stanley hope to see you soon.
    Posted Feb 25, 2021
    Paladise likes this.
  16. its good game but they wont add it back because money money money
    Posted Feb 25, 2021
    bluetiebacca likes this.
  17. Danese has already answered this;
    Do other game communities make maps for their own games? Answer; True.
    However in our case we have our own team who are advised by an independant subteam we call Castle Siege Game Insights (CSGI). We are not simply a group of individuals who make maps, we are a fully functioning team with our own management, leadership and quality control. I am aware that other player groups have similar setups but these are generally for communities which have a strong playerbase and are well established live games. For a game that is not currently live to have an equivalent independant organisation certainly warrants some merit.

    I really don't want to toe the line of toxicity here but i genuinely laughed out loud reading this. Either you have not played the game for it's full duration ever or have not played it from both sides. CTF has it similarities with attacking and defending something but they end there. Unless you are reffering to OG-OG castle siege from back in 2013 which was more like CTF but is clearly a completely different game entirely when you do some basic research.
    In modern CS, you either attack or defend, not both at once. This means that there is less multitiasking involved and people can pick their favouite sides as opposed to being expected to perform both. If you had played it properly you would know this. Gameplay dynamics are also quite different as a result because you are forced to change your style and mindset depending on the team you are placed on.
    Posted Feb 25, 2021
    miraclebuilder19 likes this.
  18. Damn bro you really just hate CS like it’s just a minigame it ain’t that serious.
    Posted Feb 25, 2021
    miraclebuilder19 likes this.
  19. I'd love the game to come back - it's fun, has an active community and is a staple of Mineplex's golden years. Despite my previous issues with certain community members, it's still a good game, and that's not going to change.

    I simply want people to realise that CS is unlikely to make it back to the main server in its current state, and many of those reasons could be solved if the community acknowledges their existence, and work to fix them. Again, I'm sorry if I came off in a different manner, but I mean no harm.
    Posted Feb 25, 2021
    Paladise likes this.
  20. damn bro well now that you said you have "CSGI" i have no choice but to accept that Castle Siege is definitely gonna be a popular game that will definitely last. You can be a fully functioning "team" but since you have no ties to mineplex and its development team this means very little in terms of getting actual content out.

    Yeah looking back at it, CTF is a poor comparison. CTF is way more dynamic. Let's think of another one.

    I could argue that cakewars has its similarities, maybe domination? Does not matter Based off of what I played CS is the stereotypical one side attacks the other side defends with kits. You could replace the Castle with any other build. I simply do not see the fun in something like this. I'd rather attack or defend than just "choosing one thing" because doing one thing repeatedly is incredibly boring.

    I have played CS. I also know I couldn't stand more than 2 games because it's either me repeatedly killing people who respawn instantaneously for 5 minutes or however long it is, or I'm mining through several barricades, fighting and dying numerous times just to stab a zombie npc. Like???
    Posted Feb 25, 2021
    Jtj and Ian923 like this.

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