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Assassin Nerf - Poll

Discussion in 'Clans' started by Adrianna, Aug 20, 2019.

?

What changes would you like to see to Assassin for Clans?

  1. No changes

    16.7%
  2. Removal of Smoke Bomb from *Clans* only

    25.0%
  3. Restrict the use of both skills at the same time, ie one skill per build

    58.3%
  1. Hey everyone

    You may have seen the following poll posted in the Clans Community Discord, for the sake of reaching more of the community we've decided to post the same question here.

    There's concern assassin will remain the predominant class w/ illusion and SB even if they're patched, due to their inherent power in Clans. This is something we don't want to maintain, and we have many options to consider. Please assume that the bugs with the skills will be patched when casting your vote. Vote above on the poll below to give us an idea; Again, please assume that the glitches will be patched when casting your vote!

    Please explain why you voted the way you did as that's more valuable feedback, especially if you voted for no changes after the bug fixes
     
    Posted Aug 20, 2019,
    Last edited Aug 21, 2019
    Archertect, JYTG, Yato and 1 other person like this.
  2. It's free hits, I used to be able to kill assassins all the time as a naked, but now I can't as one backstab strike I can't avoid comes from the illusion and another from the smoke bomb, its almost impossible to stone sword now.
     
    Posted Aug 20, 2019
    Yato and Adrianna like this.
  3. There are plenty of reasons why removing smoke bomb from the game is a good idea, however, for the sake of not removing skills, I'll have to vote for C.

    Illu / Sb, always talked about as a pair, has been powerful for way too long. They both let you get free hits, with the first ability doing most of the damage, and the second one being the one you use to finish off the player or run away unharmed. Even if the kits are fixed, you can still use SB to finish off a player or run away very easily. It is arguably a lot more powerful and broken in clans than a patched illusion.

    For those of you wondering why there is no option to "remove illusion," it is because after the ability is patched, it's very balanced in clans. It's only broken when paired with SB to get free hits, or the ability itself is glitched. There is no real reason to completely remove, unlike with SB.

    With Option C, you still have kit variety for assassin, while removing the pair that tends to cause most of the glitches. I personally think this is a good option, and while option B still remains the safest choice IMO, I'll vote C.

    Also make sure that people can't simply create the kit in Champions to use in Clans, so people can't just get a workaround. Simple way would be to make the kit not show up in Clans if it has both ILLU/SB together.

    ~Xicn
     
    Posted Aug 20, 2019
    Yato, _xXMareXx_ and Adrianna like this.
  4. Both illusion and smoke bomb are viable escape routes. Even with illusion recall you can use illusion to get extra flashes/confuse your opponent. Smoke bomb is a better escape route though.
     
    Posted Aug 20, 2019
    Xion likes this.
  5. Looks like the CCD has already decided but I'll chime in anyways

    The best options are definitely B or C, B being more favorable because I personally don’t believe restricting one combo of skills will effectively address assassin’s inherent clans power and the unbalanced playing field. Option A makes no attempt at all to change the perpetual assassin meta so that’s easily the worst choice

    Illusion and smoke-bomb, even when patched, is no doubt one of the most powerful skill combos in the game. Most reliable against heavies which makes those kits less viable to run and explains their low usage. Removing the Illusion SB combo helps that imbalance, sure, but the issues they bring to heavy matchups are still very prevalent even when one of the two skills is in play (that being smoke bomb).

    Like many if not all skills, smoke bomb wasn’t designed for clans, the unique gameplay and environment was not in mind when the skill was made. Clans’s lack of an objective that influences engagement/disengagement, Clans terrain favoring kiting and assassin’s mobility, along with other inherent strengths assassin gets in clans contributes to smoke bomb's dominance immensely. It’s way more reliable and advantageous than it should be against heavies, always being the one with the most control when it comes to initiating and concluding the fight. The nature of the skill is not balanced for an open world gamemode such as clans. That’s why I dislike keeping SB even if it can’t be paired with illusion, I don't see its inherent Clans power nerfed enough

    Build variety seems to be the major reason for choosing option C, but I don’t believe it will deliver on that within assassin’s customization, let alone variety and usage among other kits through restricting the invisibility pair. Fairly confident to say smoke bomb outclasses recall in several aspects and would outcompete the recall combos. Option C addresses one super problematic combo, but does not deal with others; Evade+smoke is a combo that may be less powerful than illu+smoke but still significantly unbalanced for matchups in clans, and is very likely to become the new assassin meta given SB’s benefits and the player-bases prior experience to fighting with evade. Even if there are a couple different sin builds able to compete with each other, assassin is still the dominant class and that just doesn't sound favorable to me. Heavies will still be bullied and their usage rates low, just replacing one powerful meta assassin kit with another and the skill floor remains low

    If the goal is to nerf the assassin meta and give other kits and skills viability, a bigger gamble is taken with option C, whereas option B feels more promising and dependable to deliver on that goal. Ultimately the benefits of removing smoke bomb look like they outweigh the drawbacks and skill removal stigma to me, and would address the problems more effectively than the other alternatives. The game really needs something significant to break out of this assassin meta

    This response has already dragged on quite a bit and I don't want to make more walls of text. I do have some more explanations and reasoning behind my stance in this doc here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1lH1eKqemmh9AfEyteaUbHln7AHXm-aAMdWGTK0tzfBE/edit
     
    Posted Aug 21, 2019,
    Last edited Aug 21, 2019
    neropatti, Adrianna, Yato and 2 others like this.
  6. I don't like removing abilities, so I think limiting them would be more beneficial due to these factors. One, Mineplex won't get backlash for removing an ability. Two, It still allows people to use the abilities which are nice for the people who worked for them. Three, It forces more class to be used, since assassin can't invis-hit some people will try the other class.

    Even with the limiter or removal of the abilities assassin will still be the meta. As it has strong attacks, high mobility, and ranged attacks. For all current events, Assassin's mobility is unmatched.

    I hope this can balance the playing field in clans.
    ~ After seeing the reasoning behind option B it seems more viable, still I do not like the removal of abilities.
     
    Posted Aug 21, 2019,
    Last edited Aug 22, 2019
    Adrianna and Xion like this.
  7. Remove sin entirely from at least 1 server. Removing smoke bomb or limiting sin won't change much. Sin would still be meta as it still can control every engagement with its ridiculous mobility and overpowered abilities.

    While removing smoke bomb would limit the sins ability to control engagements, recall still exists. With recall, sins can still control a 4v1 or 5v1 against heavies. A sin can decide to fight and still get a free escape with recall or abuse its ridiculous mobility on such a large map to just leave. Kits with little mobility options are especially affected (like knight) as it would be impossible to catch up to a sin especially on such a large map.

    Since primary recall can't be used while slowed, i would like to propose the same for smoke bomb. Smoke bomb cannot be used while slowed. This would reduce sins ability to control engagements while not removing the ability entirely from clans. This would also probably reduce the usage of smoke bomb and not everyone will use it anymore. I would rather have this change then removing smoke bomb entirely from clans.

    If that change doesn't work, I would just like to see sin removed entirely from 1 server.
     
    Posted Aug 21, 2019
    PapiKirito and Xion like this.
  8. A server without sin is denied, Recall only let's you control disengagement,no smoke bomb while slowed can be countered by a bottle, and we are looking into decreasing the size of the map.
     
    Posted Aug 21, 2019
    Veans likes this.
  9. Your opponent can kill you easily while your switching to the bottle... (You have to switch to bottle, right click, switch back to sword/axe, then press q at an extremely fast rate as the other guy isn't gonna stand there waiting for u to use the bottle)

    P.S. we need legacies back. Since you guys left clans-2 has only gone downhill...
     
    Posted Aug 21, 2019
    Vraz and Xion like this.
  10. I vote A. I like the sin meta. I don't like fighting tanks. I am mostly a solo, and it is harder to win 2v1s as a tank or against 2 tanks in a 2v1. You can win a 2v1 with sin. The sin meta is nice, it should not change
    --- Post updated ---
    you can very easily make an auto bottle macro, which only takes 1 ms to activate.
     
    Posted Aug 21, 2019
    Xion likes this.
  11. A kit that can take a 2v1 and still win easily is a sign of a kit being overpowered.
     
    Posted Aug 22, 2019
    PapiKirito and Xion like this.
  12. Oo
    Clans is a team game, go get some friends.
     
    Posted Aug 22, 2019
    Xion likes this.
  13. This is not a favourable solution.

    @Veans , you made a long post with not enough formatting. Some people will skip over it.

    Here's the most important part of your post highlighted:





    Evade+smoke is a combo [...] still significantly unbalanced [...] very likely to become the new assassin meta

    Meaning, option C will just change how assassin gets their free hits







    While we are to assume that the glitches have been patched, you are still likely to land more hits than listed below, but that's not quaranteed

    Illusion: 1 free hit
    Smoke bomb: 1 free hit
    Evade: (How many times you hit their evade) + 1 free hit

    Option C seems like the obvious choice at first, since we are used to illusion and smoke bomb being run all the time. However, it's really short-sighted, as evade will just replace illusion.

    I vote for option B.
     
    Posted Aug 22, 2019,
    Last edited Aug 22, 2019
    Yato, matrixyst, Adrianna and 2 others like this.
  14. calm down lmao you wrote like what 1,2,3,4,5,6,7, paragraphs
     
    Posted Aug 22, 2019
  15. well that is game insight
     
    Posted Aug 22, 2019
    Adrianna and Xion like this.
  16. n o

    anyways, option c initially seems like the best choice (and as veans hinted at, it's the ccd's option of choice for now at least and seems to be equally popular here), but it's kind of like putting a bandaid on a fractured kneecap. it's like what nero already said - evade will just replace illusion. did we really not learn anything from the years of the evade spam meta? assassin has way more going for it than illusion (and to a lesser degree, sb) - ridiculously good mobility, very high damage output and CQC capabilities, it's one of the only 2 classes out of 5 to have a bow, the potential to debuff/inflict status effects with several different moves (arrows included)... restricting players to either smoke bomb OR illusion just creates a new problem instead of solving anything, and we'll be stuck with a slightly shifted, but still completely dominant, assassin meta for another season. option a has practically been in effect since map 1 so let's avoid that at all costs, shall we?

    option b, while still not perfect, is by far the best solution
     
    Posted Aug 22, 2019
    neropatti, Yato, Veans and 1 other person like this.
  17. Backstab needs to be fixed as well. Hitbox/registry is way too lenient
     
    Posted Aug 23, 2019
  18. I believe the main problem here is that people have been so skilled with illusion and smoke bomb and assassin in general. Back in season 1 when sins rushed tanks a lot of them just wasted their abilities and it was an easy win. Over the season, people have learned to use their abilities wisely. For example, a normal fight against a few tanks is , hit, illusion, flash away, bow spam, go back when illusion is charged to get hits and to ensure you have an escape, flash away, go back to get hits and smoke bomb to get away, illusion to get a hit then flash away, bow spam, then rush in when you have another smoke bomb and illusion back to finish the enemies off.
     
    Posted Aug 23, 2019
    Yato and Xion like this.
  19. Agreed. Backstab hitbox is extremely weird. Sometimes im hitting them in the back and it doesn't work, but when im hitting them from the front it works sometimes for some reason.
     
    Posted Aug 23, 2019
    Nixoi and Ninja/Gekyume like this.
  20. lmao anyone that does that to you is cheating, it is near impossible to do that legit.
     
    Posted Aug 25, 2019

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