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Appeals: Inconsistencies

Discussion in 'Server Discussion' started by gpsqueixo, Mar 1, 2021.

  1. You can’t compare 1 stat booster to the thousands of blatant cheaters. We compare one on one, because we’re talking about why the duration of the ban should be so long.
     
    Posted Mar 2, 2021
  2. Aww Marzie, I wish I could say this was true but I know near a dozen players whom I personally know who have been caught cheating, said they are sorry in their appeal and then been unbanned the same day.
     
    Posted Mar 3, 2021
  3. Again, my argument isn't that stat-boosting shouldn't be punishable as a whole, it's that for lesser offences, lesser punishments should be issued - ie having severities within the rule itself. I've also not suggested once that stat-boosting isn't a bad thing, but closeting is far worse. A 30 day ban for 10 stat-boosted wins or less than a hundred kills in a game isn't really fair and shouldn't match the punishment lengths of offences such as Kill Aura or AntiKB. I really don't see where you're coming from if you believe that this is a suitable duration for the offence in question.

    Following up on your belief in how there shouldn't be lenience towards stat-boosting bans, it's a punishment like any other and should be considered equally. You also suggest "they don't have time to consider every circumstance leading to a punishment". If something such as a "circumstance" is included in a player's appeal then yes it will be considered, if not then it just seems a bit lazy, so I don't really understand the point you're trying to convey here.

    As for "pardoning lesser offences" maybe that shouldn't be the case then, but it should just be punished at a lower severity instead. The idea of the punishment system is to teach people not to break that rule again. Mineplex has already lost enough players over the years, I see absolutely no justification for there being uptight rules in place that will just push more people away from the server.

    It's also incorrect how you say "Overall, I don't think there are any inconsistencies with appeals nor the punishment system" since I've seen severity 3 hacking bans be answered within a few hours when stat-boosting bans aren't being answered for 11+ days. That's no fault of FM either if they have to go through RC for these types of punishments, but maybe that shouldn't be the case since FM are generally more experienced with dealing with appeals and the process would be much more efficient and quicker. Likewise, if someone stat boosts in small amounts over time and accumulates a fairly large amount of boosted stats as a result, then a harsher punishment could be applicable.

    I also don't see how "Most cases of stat-boosting I've witnessed, people come back and do it again multiple times after their first ban." is even possible when on second offence it's a permanent ban? I highly doubt that you see people doing it multiple times after their first ban as a result. I also think it's completely unfair to suggest "No one is ever vocal about how they stat boost if they go under the radar, but if you get caught and compare it to more severe cases, it's clear that they weren't actually sorry about what they've done until they were caught." as though if someone uses Kill Aura and appeals it, they can actually be sorry about it but someone who stat boosts can't? Maybe there are cases of people doing it in the past but for example, @gpsqueixo is clearly apologetic as well as many other people I know who committed the same offence.
     
    Posted Mar 3, 2021
  4. A dozen isn't even close to the amount we get a day. I would know as I was previously a FN and have been a part of the appeals team for a bit now :^(
    Also not completely fair to say any of this since obviously theres a lot more hacking bans done than there is stat boosting bans. Therefore we'll get a higher amount of hacking appeals anyways. Adding on- justified punishments have to be served for at least a week now and cannot get immediately unbanned. There are exceptions to this of course like skin, cape, name and compromised account bans.
     
    Posted Mar 3, 2021
  5. I understand that justified punishments have to be served for at least a weak, hence why I waited a week before appealing and as of now my appeal has been escalated 9 days on top of the 7 days I waited out. Also I said a dozen whom I know personally, I didn't mean 12 random people.

    However, this is not what I am trying to get at. What I am trying to say is that I assume almost all stat boost bans get appealed and I'm sure like me everyone whom is appealing them is incredibly apologetic and it is most likely their first offence so I'm sure they will stick to their word and not repeat it. I'm sure it would either make more sense for these punishments to be dealt with before the cheating bans - seeing as imo cheating is a much worse offence than for example in my case 'boosting' 70 kills in a seasonal game (roughly 700xp), or I think that, as @Disgruntle said, 1st offence punishments for stat boosting unless incredibly severe, for example boosting 100 wins or more in a specific game, should be reduced to a more reasonable time limit e.g a couple days; seeing as even some cheating bans only last a day or less.
     
    Posted Mar 3, 2021
    Crimson, CraftyAditya674, Ref and 2 others like this.
  6. That is not working for GWEN appeals. We only accept GWEN appeals if we think it could be incorrect.
     
    Posted Mar 3, 2021
  7. Some of my fellow appeals team members and some members of QA have already done a great job of addressing most of the misconceptions in this thread about our appeals system, how it actually works and why it works that way, however, there are a few things I must address here:

    As Marzie said, we get a lot more than 12 appeals per day...

    [​IMG]

    This is just the active appeals that are in the open forum right now, this doesn't count appeals that have not been sent in yet, nor does it count GWEN appeals or appeals that are in the archive. From this image, you can get an idea of the number of appeals we get every day. I would say the number of appeals we receive every day is more like
    I agree with the severity of the rules being quite different. This in no way means stat-boosting is not something that can be dealt with or not something we will go out of our way to deal with because we will ensure it gets forwarded, however, I would always prioritise someone cheating over someone stat-boosting. By stat boosting, yes, you ruin leaderboards and gain unfair stats over other players, however, with cheating you are actively ruining people's games non stop. A bunny hopper in say SKY or SG can wipe out lobbies quickly, which is why I make an effort to deal with those reports when they crop up as quickly as possible, it's a general principle that with limited resources you distribute them in an efficient and wise manner.

    Take this analogy, if you are an ambulance, you can only be in one place at one time. You receive a call at the same time for someone who had a moderate burn on their hand and needs to go to the hospital to get it checked out, but you also have someone who has had a heart attack and needs a paramedic within a few minutes before it is too late. Yes, this is a discussion about appeals on a block game and it is being compared to ethics and medicine, but the principle is the same? You want to cause the least suffering/damage with the resources you have. Does this mean that the person with the burn won't be seen by a professional? Of course not, they will just be a lower priority due to the severity and urgency of the issue, the same can be said with appeals and hacking in general.

    With regards to the teams which handle various appeals and who can handle what:

    The reason why certain teams handle certain cases is that they are trained and given the resources to do something specific. QA have access to specific logs that they can use for GWEN appeals, a regular appeals member cannot infer if a GWEN ban is false from the metadata given to them, even if they had access to it (which would not happen), it would likely be inefficient, we have done trials of allowing FMs access to GWEN metadata and handling these appeals and it only confirmed that the system right now is how it should be done.

    In regards to RC-only punishments, and appeals that must be confirmed such as Inappropriate Names, stat-boosting, F2 spamming, etc... Forum Management are not qualified to deal with these so they must hand them onto RC, we are going to be possibly working with Forum Management soon to have access to more of these appeals but, for now, they will go through our regular internal processes whereby they confirm them with the team that can issue them.

    I suppose a summary of this section is, if a team cannot punish for something in the first place why on Earth should they be determining if said punishment is valid or not? That makes no sense in my opinion and in the eyes of an appeals system that would create incorrect appeal handling and would not promote a fair environment that we try to maintain with the appeals system.

    The last thing I wanted to say was in regards to Quality Assurance. Quality Assurance has been receiving quite a bit of negative attention specifically in this thread because lots of what they do is associated with quite a competitive environment and directly associated with well-known players (like dealing with closet cheaters, update testing and GWEN appeals). What you must remember is they are volunteers too, everyone I know on there works very hard to keep things running smoothly, and if you look at how many tasks they must maintain just for the general operation of the server you'll see how impressive it really is.

    GWEN appeals are generally responded to swiftly and accurately from my experience, but please do not bash a team if you are not sure of what they do internally. We are not as transparent with this because it is a very secretive team that involves NDAs, but do remember they have a lot of tasks that all link into "Assuring Quality", it is a bit like the staff team would not function without Staff Management or Recruitment, the appeals system would not function without Forum Management, and every other Sr Mod team feeds into the overall goal of "creating a better player experience". The goal of quality assurance is to "assure quality", a very general and wide range of tasks which I feel should be recognised a bit more.

    TL:DR

    We do receive a lot of appeals each day, they are all handled on a case-by-case basis. Stat-boosting is against the rules, it will be seen to but we always prioritise what causes the most damage to player experience as that is our priority as a staff team. Various teams pitch into appeals because various teams pitch into punishments and the workings of the server, it just makes sense. QA need to be recognised more for what they do beyond GWEN appeals and closet cheaters, this is not their only purpose, do not bash them if you do not fully understand all of their tasks or the range of their work.



     
    Posted Mar 3, 2021
  8. I'm gonna be honest, I was just voicing my opinion if you think I'm reading that exam on why you like being a Mineplex staff then your on another planet.
     
    Posted Mar 3, 2021
    Crimson, Buffs, WaynePlayz and 3 others like this.
  9. Not sure what you mean by the word "exam" here. "exam" and "long piece of writing" are quite different things, I don't see how this post relates to an exam in any way.

    I completely understand not wanting to read the full post, some people don't have the time or patience, which is why below all my long replies I include a "TL:DR", not reading that would invalidate replying to the post since my arguments have not been understood or read.

    None of my arguments or replies were based around "liking being a Mineplex staff member" and again I don't know where this came from. If you don't wish to read my replies that is completely fine, however, please do not write unconstructive short replies regarding the post if you don't have time/a wish to read it.​
     
    Posted Mar 3, 2021
    okDamien, rejudge and whalker like this.
  10. This thread has become so petty lmao
     
    Posted Mar 3, 2021
    AWEARY likes this.
  11. nah enjoy those 2 warning points in a sec when someone reports your posts for general rudeness for no reason, buddy boy.

    anyway, I'm gonna give my blind take on this without reading any of the previous replies and only reading the OP's post since I don't feel like reading 3 pages worth of people arguing with each other.
    The reason why people get unbanned faster from punishments like hacking or gameplay exploiting is because the appeals team can handle those appeals alone. Offences that only certain staff members/teams can punish for need to have appeals for those punishments be brought up to those same teams again and it can create a unnecessarily lengthy process. If an appeals team member can respond very quickly to an appeal, it doesn't mean the opposite party will have the same speed approach as well. Also, keep in mind the nature of Rules Committee, a team that gets pinged hundreds of times on a daily basis by other staff members in their private staff chats. Even when I was a staff, whenever I pinged RC I usually got a response back several hours later, and I'd only imagine appeals take significantly longer to have RC respond back to the appeals team about them.
    For the admins part, it's kinda expected that an admin will take longer to respond back to you than any other average staff member would, that's just given. For the thing about the first Stat boosting ban not being able to be appealed, I have never heard anything like that for the 8 months I was a staff for, so I can't tell if that's something that was only recently implemented or it's a rule none of the staff members were ever taught of.
    QA needs GWEN logs to catch closeters and that requires NDA, I don't think every single staff member would be willing to sign an NDA if they were forced to. RC consists of specialized people who exceed in rules knowledge than other staff members. Ideally, you'd want to have all of your staff members have good knowledge of the rules, but on Minecraft servers where false punishments are more likely to occur than you'd want them to, it's just impossible to accomplish such a thing. People on the appeals team are 90% of the time ordinary staff members who are not part of any of these certain subteams that allow them to punish for offences normal trainees or mods can't, and I don't think QA nor RC would be willing to do appeals as well if they would be forced to do them either.

    I'd say the communication is the only inconsistent part of this whole process, but then again they're all volunteers so it's natural for it to be the way it is.
     
    Posted Mar 3, 2021
    WowCaleb, Oscaros_ and Im_Ken like this.

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