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Appeals: Inconsistencies

Discussion in 'Server Discussion' started by gpsqueixo, Mar 1, 2021.

  1. Idk, it kinda is, 3 months is a long time. And there were closeters that did it for far longer than that and still nothing happened to them. She ain't the only one that was able to cheat for a long time without getting punished.
     
    Posted Mar 2, 2021
  2. Thank you @chhase your reply was very enlightening. Perhaps I am being unfair on the appeals team and was thinking too selfishly.
     
    OP OP
    OP OP Posted Mar 2, 2021
    chhase and AWEARY like this.
  3. I completely agree with this post, when rose rush games weren't starting in the early morning I joined with alts for 3 games in order to make them start so I could play with my friends. In the process I farmed around 70 kills on them and got a 30d stat boost ban for farming '100+ kills in 3+ games [RR]'. As of right now my appeal has been escalated for 8 days and I have overall waited half of my ban, 15 days, still with no response. It is becoming so infuriating that I am contemplating cancelling my appeal in order to not waste it. The fact that players who are blatantly cheating can appeal their bans and get an immediate answer, most commonly getting accepted, is incredibly annoying. Whereas I have to wait a significant amount of time for farming 70 kills in a seasonal game. Anyway much love xo +1
     
    Posted Mar 2, 2021
  4. While I can't comment on the appeal itself, I really feel like stat-boosting is punished for too harshly as it stands right now. Generally, due to the nature of RC, some staff members seem to invest their time moderating into recording people farm the most minor amount of kills on alts than answering questions in StaffRequest. Not trying to be rude, just saying it how it is and generally speaking on behalf of most people who have been left unanswered after posting about a hacker in StaffRequest. As an ex-staff member I understand that staff are busy a lot of the time but more and more of my friends have been banned for stat-boosting for longer punishment lengths than for offences that actually directly affect other players. I struggle to see how stat-boosting impacts another player further than for example cross-teaming against them, which on first offence would only warrant a 4 hour ban. I would be interested to hear some justification for the punishment being 30 days on first offence then a permanent ban on second offence because it's just way too extreme for the offence itself. It should really be a normal gameplay ban in my opinion - ie 4 hours on first offence. For the more extreme offences then RC could decide if it's necessary to impose a harsher punishment length but with the way it works currently, someone could farm 1000 SSM wins with alts and receive the same punishment as someone else who farmed say as little as 50 RR kills.

    It's not really the fault of the mods either, it's really the fact that stat-boosting is punishable even in such low amounts. I was also informed that bringing in alts to start games such as UHC (which requires 40 to start and barely scrapes 20 without advertising in lobbies) is also deemed sufficient for stat boosting, even if the alts aren't used for kills but just to start the game.

    Now I completely understand why farming thousands of kills and wins would be punishable since then it does actually give them an unfair advantage in terms of approaching leaderboards and overtaking other players, but it's really just a waste of time to punish for farming under 100 kills in Rose Rush and just discourages people from playing on the network. Maybe a 4 hour ban for this would work better on first offence since it's really not that serious if it's only done once and not that much. 30 days is just way too excessive seeing as though someone can use FastPlace or FastEat and only be banned for 1 day on first severity 1 hacking offence. It's really necessary to bring alts in to start some games, especially UHC at any time of the day. I don't think it's fair to fault players (even though not intentionally) for the rules being directly in conflict with players who go to extremes to spend their time on the network in their favourite game.

    To conclude, the responsibility of RC should in my opinion be to adjust the rules to stop players from wanting to leave the network just because of one mistake they made and to make the appeals process more efficient to actually give players who regret their decisions a chance to redeem themselves - hence it really should be down to just Forum Management to deal with stat-boosting related appeals to speed up the process and there should be leniency automatically for any offence apart from Network Bans. I don't see why the rules are structured in a way that pushes players away from the network rather than offering some form of redemption for people who regret what they did. It doesn't take 30 days for a player who cares about the network to regret stat-boosting. Hopefully, I didn't just waste my time writing this and people actually consider what's best for the server in this instance rather than stand up for rules that you may not believe in, as a staff or community member.
     
    Posted Mar 2, 2021,
    Last edited Mar 2, 2021
    Ryan9116, WaynePlayz, Ref and 3 others like this.
  5. As per the rules page @ https://www.mineplex.com/rules/, stat boosting is when you boost your account stats through unfair or unintended means. An example of this could be one player account actively playing in multiple game servers to boost their stats, or using an Anti-AFK mod to boost stats without any effort. Using alt accounts to boost stats on your main, and the list goes on. It can even be something as simple as you and your friend agreeing to tie multiple games so that you can both intentionally receive wins several times, boosting your wins and rewards (gems, shards, XP, etc.). This is applicable anywhere because it's unfair to avoid legitimate, fair play simply to obtain these.

    Unfortunately this is incorrect. Partying with hackers or illegitimate players does not fall under Stat Boosting and actually isn't an offense whatsoever, it never has been either. I won't get too into it because the topic sparked a lot of toxicity in rule discussion outlets when they were available, but the Rules Committee team have confirmed on multiple occasions that it isn't punishable. While it does give you an unfair advantage, what seems to be the case is that it's difficult to prove there's intent to stat boost when players go about it in this manner. By that I mean you can't directly assume those partying with hackers are a. aware they're hackers and b. intend to use them to gain an unfair advantage. You'd think notorious players who continuously do it could be reviewed case-by-case and considered for a stat boosting punishment, but maybe their policy still remains better safe than sorry.

    This doesn't represent my own thoughts, I'm just giving you what I believe is the reasoning of R.C.
     
    Posted Mar 2, 2021
  6. Yes @Disgruntle that's exactly the point I was trying to get across to the Rules Committee members! Punishment severities are so inconsistent, and I fully agree with you
     
    OP OP
    OP OP Posted Mar 2, 2021
    Disgruntle likes this.
  7. They are, in fact, not commonly accepted. Instead, they are commonly denied. :happyt3:
     
    Posted Mar 2, 2021
    Xukuwu, Im_Ken and rejudge like this.
  8. Stat boosting isn’t particularly easy to get evidence on, and it takes a lot of proof to get a ban. Now, you asked how this might effect other players, it effects literally anyone ahead of them in stats since you’re passing people illegitimately. It’s like how Hypixel banned people who used alts to boost in the Pit, it’s just unfair to people who actually worked hard to get there.
     
    Posted Mar 2, 2021
  9. I already addressed the issues stat-boosting bring when I said, "Now I completely understand why farming thousands of kills and wins would be punishable since then it does actually give them an unfair advantage in terms of approaching leaderboards and overtaking other players". I'm perfectly aware of the issues with it and I never suggested once that it isn't a problem. However, it's not a major issue in comparison to other offences and my proposal suggests that the severity of stat-boosting should be reduced to match that of a normal gameplay ban in less serious cases.
     
    Posted Mar 2, 2021
    Ryan9116, WaynePlayz, Ref and 2 others like this.
  10. Although I have never had any insight on the appeals system, every appeal is looked at case-by-case because most if not all punishments are never the same unless multiple offenders are involved. Most of the punishments and severities are weighed at what RC feels is generally right. The members of RC have been around the community for years and have issued and witnessed several punishments throughout their time on the staff team, so to say that their opinions on the severities of different offenses would be going up against a lot of opinions and accounts that they have.

    With the exception of false or insufficient bans, which are guaranteed to happen as there is no perfect system with a human moderation team, most punishments happen for one reason or another, with it either boiling down to being agitated towards another player, wanting to reach a certain goal easier or witnessing someone else breaking rules and mimicking that action yourself. Even if it's just for a second, that intent someone had was clear. It isn't that the appeals team needs to be more lenient and understanding of the circumstances leading to someone's punishment, but actual punishments exist when rules are broken to inadvertently give the player time to better themselves and not continue with it further. The appeals team exists to process appeals based off their own guidelines; they don't have time to consider every circumstance leading to a punishment, and it wouldn't be fair considering those decisions would likely be influenced by bias.

    When somebody either blatantly cheats or closet cheats on the server, they're doing it primarily for one of two reasons: to ruin the experience the server intends to provide for others, or to gain something out of it(i.e. enjoyment or stats). There's a reason the punishment timer is high, and it's both to restrict the player from returning and cheating for long enough, and give them enough time to consider their punishment. Stat boosting is a 30 day ban because although you might not see it the same way, illegitimately boosting your stats in whatever manner it may be is completely selfish to those players who gained those stats legitimately, even if you're not going for leaderboards or records. While some players have done it in much more severe examples than others, to downplay and pardon lesser cases would be setting a bad precedent that says "you could easily get away with this if you don't do it too much."

    Decreasing the timer of the punishment if cases are less severe than others may seem justified but it is a loophole to get away with breaking the rules. I honestly frequently find blatant cases of people boosting but am just short of having enough evidence. Most cases of stat boosting I've witnessed, people come back and do it again multiple times after their first ban. I've had a few cases with people hopping from game to game, talking to each other in chat about how many games they could boost or how they could start botting UHC lobbies. On the other hand, there's boosting cases where people boost a few games to gain the achievements from them. They're both very different cases, but both boil down to complete awareness to how what they're doing is against the rules, but they try to hide it. No one is ever vocal about how they stat boost if they go under the radar, but if you get caught and compare it to more severe cases, it's clear that they weren't actually sorry about what they've done until they were caught.

    Overall, I don't think there's any inconsistencies with appeals nor the punishment system especially in this specific case. I'm actually glad that there are more staff members interested in finding boosting cases and acting upon them, because letting it go by for so long and so severely in some cases was a mistake, and when stat boosters claim it's unjust when they get caught, it's not that they're actually regretful of what they did.
     
    Posted Mar 2, 2021
    rilau and 20LeeBrian1 like this.
  11. Uhhhh.. hacking is pretty much a stat booster but 10x worse. Hackers don't boost their stats, but they ruin others' stats in their games. For example, if there was a blatant b-hopper that couldn't be dealt with for 30 minutes that was on Survival Games, the hacker would do a LOT more damage to the player's stats in the game compared to a stat booster hardly doing a dent. Then you factor in the idea that there could be another hacker after the old hacker got banned. It's just a continuation of ruined games, especially if the game that a player mains doesn't have many other lobbies, and it's just a loop of games with hackers.

    "it does undermine the hard work legitimate players put in" - so does hacking. Hacking ruins entire players' lobbies. At least other players have a chance at winning a game against a stat booster compared to winning against a person flying around with TPAura.

    Either way, it's not fair at all that hackers can literally appeal 7 days after they chose to ruin multiple games or even win streaks of other players, meanwhile, people who fund the server and keep it active have to wait a long while.
     
    Posted Mar 2, 2021
    Disgruntle and Fusafez like this.
  12. Stat Boosters are much worse. They actively ruin games using many different methods and pretend to be legit while farming wins and xp. They surpass leaderboarders using illegitimate methods. Hackers are usually forced to wait out their ban as well, I have no idea where you all got the impression that hackers are let off the hook. As for the last section of your argument, you decided that players who stat boost with ranks should be more likely to have appeals accepted instead of regular hackers (???), that's literally just a pay-to-be-unbanned system, just because you donate doesn't let you off the hook for anything
     
    Posted Mar 2, 2021
    510bike likes this.
  13. I couldn't disagree more. What you're saying is that boosting 10 games of Bacon Brawl for 1k EXP (my case) is "much worse" than closeting for weeks on end (illegitimately boosting their own stats) or even bhopping for around 30 minutes (actively ruining many people's stats for over 10 games)? There is no way the two are comparable.
     
    OP OP
    OP OP Posted Mar 2, 2021
    Disgruntle and andr3w like this.
  14. Firstly, I get you're trying to find every small possible reason to be with the staff side on this thread, but it doesn't make any sense whatsoever. If you think that being a stat booster is much worse than being a blatant hacker, you're just wrong lol. It's not like hackers can get a free pass for doing it "just to be annoying," as they went through the process of installing a client and choosing to hack either way. Again, players still have a chance with winning against a stat booster, but no chance of winning a fight against someone flying. I highly disagree that farming xp is worse than making a full lobby lose a win streak or lose their chance to get xp.

    @510bike also if you'd like to make a point, please counter me in a post rather than liking Damien's post - I'd love to see a detailed paragraph about how you think one player stat-boosting is worse than a blatant hacker.

    Note to FM/As: This post isn't rude in any way, it's a counter to a point that me and many other's agree is wrong. I am not violating any forum rules, and I'm giving constructive criticism. I mean no harm to any others.
     
    Posted Mar 2, 2021
  15. Hackers are usually banned quickly and easily, closeting and stat boosting take weeks to gain evidence on. You keep bringing up TPAura and Flying which are super easy for GWEN to pick up on, they’ll get banned pretty fast. Also, addressing another point of you saying that cheaters chose to install a client and hack, no one ever said they didn’t, but it’s even more of a time consuming process for a stat booster since they have to get alts, or buy bots or organize a group with cheaters first, it’s a really long process beforehand and it’s not really even comparable. Finally, you keep claiming that winning against a hacker is impossible and you don’t address that if you have someone teaming up against you, the chances of you winning are pretty low as well. Stat boosters ruin the game for people just as much as regular players, and should be dealt with as such.@gpsqueixo you’re entire point is just ridiculous. Just because YOU got banned quickly doesn’t mean everyone did, and there’s likely tons of stat boosters still roaming free on the server. They consistently ruin games and cause people to lose and give an unfair advantage to themselves. They should remain punished the same as any ordinary cheater.
     
    Posted Mar 2, 2021,
    Last edited Mar 2, 2021
  16. Again, the OP stat boosted for 10 games, not sure how 10 games = multiple weeks. I agree that stat-boosting is bad, but you're definitely wrong for agreeing that stat-boosting is worse than blatantly hacking. Hacking isn't always dealt with quickly either, especially during the day when most staff members have school.
     
    Posted Mar 2, 2021
  17. Again, just because OP did doesn’t mean everyone who stat boosts does. Regular cheaters are literally always banned the same day, the only reason OP was banned so fast was because they didn’t hide it well and people reported them.
     
    Posted Mar 2, 2021
  18. If you can name a specific case as to stat-boosting is worse than blatantly hacking, go ahead. It's not fair that you're naming situations that aren't likely without evidence or proof. Also, I'm mainly proving the point that 10 games of stat boosting is not worse than a player blatantly hacking. Not generally, this specific scenario.
     
    Posted Mar 2, 2021
  19. When a player stat boosts over and over again and climbs the leaderboards because of it? Just because fly hackers are common doesn’t discount the point that stat boosting has way more potential to do long term damage than a fly hacker who gets banned after 5 games
     
    Posted Mar 2, 2021
  20. I'm sick of arguing here, but I still don't see how that's valid if a singular player boosts their way up the leaderboard, compared to the thousands that blatantly hack. It does in fact do more long-term damage, especially as Mineplex doesn't do IP bans (yes, I know the reasoning). Even if a player cheated their way to the top and wasn't caught until a few months later, their stats would be wiped and the player would be banned. Obviously it depends on specific if/how cases, but I guarantee that you agree that on a general view, blatant hackers are much more of a problem than stat boosters.

    Argument over, I don't want to get this thread locked for a flame war from this back and forth nonsense. It's clear that you're going for agreements with staff members here, but comeon. You and I both know the truth, it's nothing to hide lol.

    Note to FM/As: This post isn't rude in any way, it's a counter to a point that me and many other's agree is wrong. I am not violating any forum rules, and I'm giving constructive criticism. I mean no harm to any others.
     
    Posted Mar 2, 2021
    gpsqueixo likes this.

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