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Not Planned Advocating for Disagreement: Bring Back Dislike

Discussion in 'Website Feedback' started by Niervaco, May 20, 2019.

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  1. Hello there! It is I, Nier, and I shall bring up something that many people either feel very against or very for bringing back, the Dislike button. Time for an end all be all thread, and why I think it should be brought back to the forums.

    History

    Way back in what some might remember as the time when Chiss was the bees knees, back when we actually had a good player count, the forums environment was quite different. Typically more thorough forum posts, lots of Enjin, and lots of emoticons available to choose from for reacting to posts. We had a selection of emotes from like, dislike, funny, creative, flame-war, etc. Time comes where some very questionable patches were coming out, and these patch forum posts would be assaulted with "dislike" reactions far more than likes or anything positive. For good reason, these patches were bad and the reaction was serving its purpose. However, those in the silver thrones above us didn't quite see it the same way. They perceived the mass dislike counts as "spam" and eventually the dislike emote was removed from being used. You could still see dislike reactions on any posts that had them use don, but you could no longer use them on any new threads or replies. The community found this as an act of censorship and comically started using the "funny" reaction as the new dislike reaction. After a little bit of asking the community to stop funny spamming posts, Mineplex flipped the table in rage and went back to the potato emote we all know and love today. That was, until Mineplex very very quietly killed the Enjin based forum site as we all moved to this new xen site. You used to be able to access forum posts, but now every single thread is missing, all front page posts eradicated, and now the only functioning thing available is the store. Yes, its functioning, without sale updates. You can still buy things from it. Classic capital at it's finest.

    The Now-Times

    Keeping it sweet and medium sized, I think the dislike button should make a return. Why? Well, let's evaluate the current forum situation at hand.

    Ever since the forum rules reform after the xen site (this site) went public, the rules against post boosting took a complete 180. Now, it's very hard to get warned for post boosting if you're being positive. All it takes is "+1, I like this idea, good job OP" and according to the forums team, this isn't post boosting. This is actually from the Leadership Team, that chose that the post boosting rule be super lenient, probably to make the forums seem active. Just a business image move here, nothing to see go along. However, this greatly diminished the quality of discussions on the forums along with the ever relevant forums moderation being, putting it lightly, janky. A part of this mass quality decrease is the push towards positive posts over quality. This is evident over the "General Rudeness" warning basically covering anything that the previous "unconstructive criticism" rule covered that happened to be negative and come with a bit of constructive criticism. They knew what they were doing when they set up these rules changes over time. Now because you can just spam positive posts without repercussion and most negative posts get shot down with a warning of some sort, most people who want to be productive often look elsewhere to host good discussions. This is very, very bad. The forums have become more of a company image bolster than the place to hold actual solid discussions, which have instead moved onto a handful of Mineplex Discord servers. This isn't good, and it should change.

    Tilting the scale back! - Bring Back Dislike

    What would bringing back the dislike button do? Well, immediate effects would be apparent. Post boosts would be slammed with dislikes because of their useless contributions to threads and replies. This will mean discouragement for post boosting, without even changing the rule. More over time results would be a like / dislike ratio on idea posts and good / bad updates. Yes LT, Jarvis, this means if you push out bad news or bad updated, we will push that button. That's okay though, not everyone likes everyone's ideas, but this would serve as a self-functioning filter for good and bad content. Those who might get dislike bombed at one post, might be swayed to take some more in depth thought into their future posts or make attempts to work out their ideas with other people so that it could make more people happy. This can also potentially act as a sorting option for Mineplex forum posts, "search by most liked / disliked". Yes, this means that someone can disagree with you without exactly explaining why. This argument sounds like it would hold up, but we already have such a strong positive reinforcement system in the forums that a light disagreement just makes things more balanced again. Useless positive contributions? Might not be warned for, but prepare for dislikes. Post boosting? Might not be against the rules, but dislikes would ensue. Bad patches / updates? The community will be quick to tell you that the majority liked / disliked it, instead of a static like count only. Forums that only encourage positive moods and punish negativity, encourage spam and discourage productive communication and feedback. This also means less thoroughly thought out ideas will become pushed out in favor of ideas where the like / dislike ratio is larger because the OP took the community feedback in hand (and might've had a panic attack with the dislike count). Sounds negative, but it's necessary to promoting a productive forum where users who feel that they can spam poorly thought out ideas or post boost would be discouraged from continuing those habits. Not everything in life is positive, and we need to stop treating this forum site as a safe space for Mineplex. There's a reason why a lot of elite idea contributors and discussion keysmashers don't like it here. While a majority of the elites would rather like to see a post boost and general moderation reform, a simple red X or thumbs down goes a long way to start something new again... and those reforms are for a different time for another forum post.

    Oh, and bringing back dislike means poorly thought out moderation would get slammed. No more mini modding for robotic trainee posts. ;)

    Feel like I missed something? Just reply down below and I'll give you your answer, for it is time I get back to playing 1.14 and enjoying SoundCloud music.
     
    Posted May 20, 2019
  2. +1, I like this idea, good job OP

    This will make it so people can’t make replies like this one. :O
     
    Posted May 20, 2019
    CupAWup, Fall, neropatti and 2 others like this.
  3. Posted May 20, 2019
  4. I saw the title and I immediately was intrigued, due to the negative connotation that the dislike button has had in the past and present. Any discussion about it is usually opinionated and from my experience, the idea is usually shot down.

    While I don’t know how to feel about this, I can’t really tell if much will change. By adding the dislike button, we’re increasing the negativity on our forums by a large factor. I feel like you’re a little wrong about us in the sense that you make LT and the rest of the forums staff sound evil. It sounds like we’re forcing positivity on to you. But that isn’t what it is in my opinion. Preventing negativity and forcing positivity are two different things in my mind, and I don’t believe that forcing positivity is the case.

    I’m truly neutral on the idea of bringing it back. Simply put, I see what you mean, I see what you want. I don’t know how this will benefit us, however? Spamming a dislike button isn’t as useful as commenting with constructive criticism towards the OP? Wouldn’t adding the button back allow this to become more of an occurrence and allow users to hide their opinions behind a dislike button? Not only that, but how can we truly tell the actual liking of a post if players have the ability to simply dislike someone and their posts for no reason.

    All in all, I’m not sure how to feel about it. I’m interested in what others have to say.
     
    Posted May 20, 2019
  5. Hello there,

    I think this thread begs an important question and can serve as the basis for discussion. While I can't say I completely agree with bringing back the Mineplex dislike button, I certainly agree with reviving rules against post boosting. Certain users on this site are almost toxic about providing even the shortest possible responses in the name of ratcheting up their post count, and because of it the vast majority of forums posts are in an almost-sobering state. Completely agree with bringing back policies against micro/nano-posting.

    Like I said before, I can't say I completely agree with bringing back the dislike button. That being said, its absence sets the precedence that disagreement (or at the very least, disagreement that isn't phrased stringently positively) is unspokenly forbidden, and speaking more as a community member than a staff member, there are certain posts I feel almost pressured not to speak out against or denounce. While I understand that Mineplex wants to promote a healthy and open environment that fosters predominately positive discussions, it can be hard not to wonder "At what cost?" and I think allowing for disagreement-- without advocating for hazing-- may be an important step.

    The forums are an excellent platform allowing for discussions. However, I'm very interested in seeing what other staff members and the network's administration have to say about the opined ideas being offered in this thread. If for nothing else, I commend you for a well-constructed argument-- if not always perfectly structured.
     
    Posted May 20, 2019
    Eroil, Wiz_Techno and Vocaloiid like this.
  6. Remember potatoes instead of likes? Yeah, what happened to that? Does mineplex just like to destroy everything even remotely OG that players can enjoy? jesus
     
    Posted May 20, 2019
  7. Sure, disageeing with a post/thread is negative but being negative isn’t always bad.

    Using the same logic, why do we have a like button? People could be using that but nooo they have to say +1 just to get their post count up. If players feel like they need to hide their opinions, they wouldn’t be replying in the first place, and they wouldn’t even be pressing the disagree button because they are hiding their opinions.

    --- Post updated ---
    That’s not even what the thread is about but ok.
     
    Posted May 20, 2019,
    Last edited May 20, 2019
    Combativeness/xWorpp likes this.
  8. Well, the forum rules do discourage someone from saying something negative. In helping to promote positivity on the forums, it's inadvertently stamped out most forceful critism in exchange for a largely sugarcoated critism. If someone doesn't like something and has nothing nice to say about it, the dislike button wouldn't hurt.
     
    Posted May 20, 2019
  9. Responses from me in bold



    I think this a good idea. I advocated for this on the old forums too, but it never happened. I find it unbalanced to have a like button but no dislike. Another feature I suggest, is that if you have more dislikes than likes, then you can't post for one week kind of like Reddit. Also, just in case of abuse, you must have at least 10 posts to use the dislike button.
     
    Posted May 20, 2019,
    Last edited May 20, 2019
    Vocaloiid and ClqssyOwl like this.
  10. Idea Rejected
    Reason: Irrelevant to Thread
    Reread the OP and try again... this wasn’t about removing potatoes and removing OG stuff.

    Sorry IT I just love taking some jabs. Improve team plz

    Alright here... let’s see... increasing the negativity on the forums by a large amount. Making LT and forum staff evil. Forcing positivity, dislike button is just not as useful as a constructive post, hiding opinions, disliking posts for no reason or because they hate the OP.

    Alright let’s start from number first. Increase the negativity in the forums. While it seems kinda scary that way, there’s already a ton of positivity in the forums. It’s a balancing factor and makes it to where it’s more neutral instead of being an overbearing wash of casual chatter or “yeah I like this +1” and just liking posts for, no reason. Aha I’ll get to that in a second.
    Making LT and forum staff look evil. Okay, from several sources I’ve received it is LT that specifically chose to have the team enforce the post boost rule this way. Building off of that, I can’t really come up with a different conclusion where people in high company position would target this specific rule and make it that specific way except the way I described it. That’s just me. For forum mods? Well, I’ve had my fair share of encounters with... jank? enforcements over the past years of posting on a not so regular basis. Putting it in a positive way, the enforcement of some rules is inconsistent and depends on who you’re being warned by. That’s just how things played out. I’m not trying to make LT or FNs / FMs look evil, that’s just how they make themselves out to be sometimes. Not evil, evil is a bad word for this. A better word would be mischevious. I’m not the only person who shares this opinion about FN moderation. If you want to know more, you can DM me later.
    Enforcing positivity. Okay, let’s crank the clock back to 2018 (I think) with the New Years GWEN Unban of 2018. I remember going livid over this unfortunate event. Every single moderator on the website, really sugar coated their opinions on the matter. I don’t think I’ve seen such large amounts of downplay in Mineplex before, at least not one within the past year or two. It seems that, within various teams on Mineplex, those in moderating or any sort of team position are discouraged from having negative opinions about the network, and that big bombshell of blue fish bad exemplified it more than ever. Though I think it’s been improving a bit since, it manifested itself onto the forum environment. No one wants to say something negative. The moderators are discouraged from negatively talking about their server. Heck I lost my Game Insights position because of my unfiltered honesty about the server. Along with several other sources, I think I stand solid with my claims. Also, other rules pretty much do enforce positivity, as there’s basically no repurcussions for being positive even if it contributes absolutely nothing to the conversation. I remember just vaguely pointing at something bad would get you warned for General Rudeness or nonconstructive criticism. I think the forums needs a fair bit or negativity not just to make things, negative, but to balance out the overwhelming casual happy safe lingo that exists right now.
    I as well as others will agree that a constructive disagreement is always better than a reaction, but this whole thing applies to likes too. I want people liking ideas, but elaborating on things the OP might have missed or want further discussion on, instead of just saying “Yeah I like this”as an entire post. It’s a post boost, and it also doesn’t help the discussion even if it’s positive. People can hide their opinions behind both like and dislike buttons, and both can be used for unintended purposes. Just because I can use dislike if I hate someone or just ‘cause, doesn’t mean I can’t use the like button just ‘cause of that I might have an ecrush on someone and like everything they post. This argument goes both ways.
    It’s also very tedious to go through every single post on a large thread to get the community’s general feedback on a topic, a like to dislike ratio provides a handy solution for that.

    @ClqssyOwl I won’t quote because this is a huge enough reply, but...

    I don’t post much here, so hearing that I make good posts is always a good encouraging thing. One thing though, hazing is generally able to be told apart from general disagreement. I can disagree with everything you say and I can go on and on about it, but those who choose to haze and humiliate will get what’s coming. But, we can’t focus on disagreeing too much. A subtle focus point here is that bringing back a dislike button is bringing the yang back to yin. It’s all about balance and the capability for either side to give their feedback without fear of warning points, which is a recurring issue for those who don’t particularly agree with everything MP does.
     
    OP OP
    OP OP Posted May 20, 2019
  11. EDIT: I'm slow asf and can't detect a joke, don't mind me
     
    Posted May 20, 2019,
    Last edited May 21, 2019
  12. Not sure if you know, but it’s kinda a joke made to mock IT.
     
    Posted May 20, 2019
    AsianJesus likes this.
  13. Shush bb, I can't detect sarcasm :)
     
    Posted May 21, 2019
  14. Thank you for writing this Nier! It went more in depth than I could because I wasn't ever in the history of Forums, but reading this I'm still supportive as you present it.

    I've been thinking of how it may be sometimes counterproductive, but then remember that if there was a simpler way just to disagree or agree rather than hate on a post then it would be useful. This could be used to combat post boosting like you said and may make the Forums a better place in times of short responses. However, if this could possibly be done only for the original thread post, that may be ideal for people who might target one person. Of course a dislike button may come up with some problems, but overall it may also solve some more and make the Forums a better/cleaner place.

    Currently you have a lot of likes on this post as agreement, but if someone was to oppose their disagreement may get lost in the flood of comments and might just be disregarded even as a valid opinion. I agree with this severely, +1
     
    Posted May 21, 2019
  15. I’ll wholeheartedly listen to any side in this discussion and give my matter. No ones opinion is invalid, it just happens to be different than mine. Say, Wanderer, Jarvis or some other big forum admin comes along (or even someone who just thinks otherwise, doesn’t have to be in a high position) and pulls up something that counters my argument, I won’t just disregard it. I’ll probably reply with my explanation or reasoning. Just because I might seem right sometimes, doesn’t mean anyone who thinks I’m wrong is, wrong.
     
    OP OP
    OP OP Posted May 21, 2019
    Jaekub likes this.
  16. I'll make this as short as possible.

    I'd rather not have people's posts targetted with dislikes they don't deserve because of them being hated within the community, or people bombarding staff with dislikes because of them doing literally anything. Any post will literally get dislikes just because people can and they like to be trolls.

    About the post boost rule...
    Sure, I agree it should definitely be changed. More than likely is for the reason(s) you said. I'm tired of seeing posts have short responses to boost their count and look active on the forums, it really doesn't help anyone, especially the OP. I have brought this issue/change up to Jarvis and it was denied by higher ups, which I think kinda sucks. I'll try bringing it up to even higher people and talk with them myself.
     
    Posted May 21, 2019
  17. To the Dislike Button:

    I wouldn't mind having a dislike button, as there could be better feedback from the community and decrease post boosting. If a player that is simply too lazy to write out a long post wants to express their opinion on their idea, they could easily press the Like Button if they agree and the Dislike Button if they don't agree. There would most likely be less short, undetailed replies of "-1 bad idea" or just "-1", and a higher percentage of quality posts.

    That being said, there is a problem with having a Dislike Button, and that's trolling. Users could troll others by disliking posts in mass quantities, which would regress the forums, which isn't the main goal (obviously). The good thing about having a Dislike Button is that players can show their opinion without having a write out a post. Sure, there will be fewer posts, but there will be more quality than lazy posts, which makes the forums look good.

    I have a solution to this problem and that is placing a timer on how much you can dislike posts. You would only be able to dislike one post per five minutes, just so you have to think about why you are disliking it and prevent someone going through a disliked user's posts and disliking them all within a few minutes. This would anger anyone who is trying to troll others and eventually cause them to stop, as it isn't worth the effort.

    I'll be giving this idea a +1

    About the post boosting rule:

    I agree with @Marzie on this one. It's very difficult for a player to get warned for post boosting, which I've only seen happen twice during my time on the forums. The post boosting rule needs to be a little more strict, but it's difficult to make it fair for others. Some users express their idea in a matter of a few sentences and some express their idea in a few paragraphs. It totally depends on who is writing the post, which is different when it comes to individuals. This change to the rule could be as simple as "3 short, undetailed responses within ten minutes" but there's a problem with that. Some users just don't want to write out a long post or boost their post count. All they want to do is state their opinion and move on.

    This is why you have a be extremely cautious when it comes to having a balanced post boosting rule. It may seem a little lenient when it comes to those with short, undetailed, but relevant responses. They're still contributing to the thread but in their own manner. I agree that when it comes to those that write large posts often, the rule seems very lenient as it seems impossible to break it, but you can.

    When you look at the current rule, if you say "+1 nice idea", that isn't considered post boosting as the reply is relevant to the thread, which in my opinion, shouldn't be the case. These short responses are what make the forums look bad with the players that aren't willing to take the time to write a detailed response.

    So, here is what I suggest for the new post boosting rule:

    5 short, undetailed responses to a thread within a week that are within one of these categories:


    Completely irrelevant to the thread or any discussions happening within the thread.
    Simply agreeing and nothing else, ex. "+1 nice idea"
    Almost identical responses between threads


    If you have any suggestions for my idea, feel free to let me know!

    The post boosting rule has been discussed many times and nothing has happened yet. This is most likely due to the lack of community involvement in wanting to change it for the better. We need an improvement in this rule and the only way we can accomplish that is to get support from both staff members and community members.

    I hope to see this rule changed in the future, and it all starts with support from the community.

    Edit: Changed my suggestion of the new post boosting rule a bit so it'd be a little less lenient.
     
    Posted May 21, 2019,
    Last edited May 21, 2019
  18. Okay, I'm going to address this in the most concise manner I can.

    The forums have turned into a complete waste. We have so many players just constantly post boosting, creating useless and stupid ideas purely just to bump up their post count. It's infuriating so much so that several months ago, after starting to post on the forums again, I omitted the "3rd most poster" one, because I was not that anymore, and two, because I don't want to be associated with the spammy post boosters that are rampant on the forums. It's ridiculous and nothing changes because, let's be real, no shade trying to be thrown, but whoever manages the forums doesn't do a very good job at it. And it's not just entirely that one persons fault. We can't fix the broken post boosting rule because LT made the post boosting rule so lenient probably, as Nier stated, because it's a good marketing move in their eyes. They want to see active forums, but don't care in the slightest what is making it active. Maybe if they checked out the forums they'd see people abusing their leniency for the post boosting rule and fix it. Anyway, the only way to properly tell people they need to stop posting for the count and start posting for the quality is to show their dislike for that post. We can't do it by just not upvoting the post because, let's be real, that doesn't really say anything. I guarantee the current post boosters that are doing it just for the count don't know how much no one likes them because they can't get any direct feedback per post. An easy way to fix this is to add a dislike button. This would be SUCH an easy way to directly tell those post boosters "Hey, maybe you should put more time into your replies/threads!" And, if we're being frank, it's for they're own good, because if they don't grasp the concept of quality > quantity then they can't really advance as players or join any communities and expect to be liked because all they do is post boost and every competent person here has a forums account and sees that.

    Now, I understand some people's worry that this could create a most toxic environment than before. But I thoroughly think our players are pretty nice in general and wouldn't use the button in such a way. If it's a problem then you guys can easily restrict it to 100+ posts before one can use that button, therefore no one can get a bunch of accounts and dislike bot someone.


    So, here's my takeaway. The dislike button would be a very important tool for players to respectfully tell other players to stop post boosting and make quality forum replies. If it gets out of hand, then I would be fine with restricting it to 100+ posts. If it still is getting out of hand and is creating a negative environment on the forums. Then maybe it might be an eye opener to LT to change the post boosting rule so people are forced to make better responses than "+1", because, let's be honest, it's absolutely ridiculous that players are allowed to say "+1, good idea!" and not get in trouble. I'm not saying we make it the really bad harsh rule that used to be on Enjin, but a happy median could easily be found creating an environment where the forums is a place for everyone, but pushes people not to be spammy.

    Thanks
    Techno
     
    Posted May 21, 2019
  19. Yes!

    Bring back the dislike button, especially for the sake of updates that many people dislike. If not, there should be a better way to express dislike for an update or change, maybe through voting. I also think that post boosting and mini-modding is getting out of hand, yet another reason to bring back the dislike.

    Eloquently written thread. Nice job @Niervaco !
     
    Posted May 21, 2019
    Mitchy likes this.
  20. You never know till you try
     
    Posted May 21, 2019
    Mitchy, florence ♡ and Jaekub like this.
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