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A New Hardcore - Invasions

Discussion in 'Clans' started by Fallen™, Mar 30, 2020.

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Do you like the proposed idea on Invasions?

Poll closed Mar 31, 2020.
  1. Yes

    1 vote(s)
    50.0%
  2. No

    1 vote(s)
    50.0%
  3. Yes, with some changes.

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. INTRODUCTION:
    I've not created my own idea and put it on the forums in... a very long time. However, this is something that's been important to me for a long time and something I believe has the potential to change clans... forever. So here goes nothing! The following is a two-part system for raiding in Clans, involving a reworked siege mechanic, and reworked invasion mechanic, both of which have been changed so that they are more balanced, and can be balanced in the future to very specific amounts, something never previously possible.

    INVASIONS:
    What is an invasion? How would they work?
    - 15 minutes long (+5 warmup, +5 cooldown).
    - Start by gaining 25 warpoints, 5 minute warmup & cooldown period.
    - Modified FBA for attackers.
    - Full Block Access with up to 400% slower mining speed to balance FBA. Numbers are highly editable for easy balancing. (This won't make sense w/out reading the entire spoiler about them)
    - 5 min warmup at begining and 5 min cooldown at end.
    - Built in system to prevent griefing.
    - More skill required to invade a clan successfully that in Beta.
    - Stonebrick retains a massive advantage over regular blocks.

    Read the spoilers for SPECIFICS.
    BREAKING BLOCKS

    In order to destroy a block, you would have to mine it with your pickaxe X amount of times. Depending on the ratio of players in the attacking clan to the defending clan, the number of times you must break a block changes.

    [​IMG]

    A “difficulty coefficient” would be set based on the ratio of players in the enemy clan to yours. Updates when a player in the enemy clan leaves/joins, or your clan leaves/joins.

    Calculating the Coefficient (Ratio in Invaders:Invaded)
    1 invader : >2 invaded -> Block must be broken once. (0.4s/block) => NO CHAT MESSAGES
    1 invader : 2 invaded -> Block must be broken once. (0.4s/block) => NO CHAT MESSAGES
    1 invader : >1 invaded -> Block must be broken twice. (0.8s/block)
    1 invader : 1 invaded -> Block must be broken twice. (1.2s/block)
    >1 invader : 1 invaded -> Block must be broken twice. (1.2s/block)
    2 invader : 1 invaded -> Block must be broken thrice. (1.6s/block)
    >2 invader : 1 invaded -> Block must be broken thrice. (1.6s/block)

    For better visualization, here’s a chart of the block break speed in terms of the # of times a block would need to be broken, based off the ratio of players in the invaded/invader clans.

    [​IMG]

    In terms of coding, I made this mechanic in a console myself on Java, it took me five minutes. So don’t be thinking it’s too difficult.
    PLACING BLOCKS

    Attacking players can place 64 blocks in a claim, after which there is a 3.0 minute cooldown for placing additional blocks. # of blocks placed is reset if the player doesn’t place anything for 30 seconds. This mechanic prevents griefing, which would probably be coupled with an anti-griefing rule for spam-placing blocks.

    When players near their block place limit, they would be notified in chat.

    [​IMG]
    WARMUP/COOLDOWN

    After 25 wps, a 5 minute warmup would start where your warpoints are reset with the invaded clan. You and that clan’s warpoints are held in stasis, both clans prepare for the invasion.

    After the invasion, a 5 minute cooldown period would start where your warpoints remain in stasis with the invading clan, to give you a chance to block up your base and recover.
    STONEBRICK CONSIDERATION

    The break coefficient would be TRIPLED for stone brick blocks, meaning if you had to mine a regular dirt block three times, you would have to mine a block of SB 9 times in order to break it.
    SIEGES:
    What is a siege? How would they work?
    - 20 minutes long (+5 min warmup)
    - 15 or more warpoints to start, 5 minute warmup period, 5 minute cooldown period.
    - Modified siege mechanics for attackers.
    - Sieges started with OUTPOSTS.
    - A number of outpost changes to make them more viable...
    - More expensive raid toolset than currently to balance less warpoints needed.
    - Instant explosion upon TNT impact.
    - Defenders can't place blocks within blast radius of TNT for 1m 30s.
    - /c outpost command.
    - Enemy clans in the tab would go from “10 warpoints” as it is currently, to “15 warpoints,” as that is what is required to start a siege, letting players know they are in danger of being sieged, and giving the enemy clan feature a proper use.
    - A number of other changes.

    Read the spoilers for SPECIFICS.
    STARTING A SIEGE

    In order to start a siege, you would need an outpost. Admins and above could place outposts. Outposts would spawn with a villager in the middle, which players would click to open up a GUI. In the GUI would be a list of clans you have 15 or more warpoints on. You would click the clan you want to siege, and confirm it in chat with a CLICK HERE message.

    Upon starting a siege, a five minute warmup period would be announced to your clan and the defending clan. After the five minutes, a message in chat would announce the siege to the server.

    Outposts would undergo the following changes in order to be viable:
    - Unable to be destroyed, has infinite health.
    - Teleport to outpost via /c outpost (5 minute cooldown).
    - One cannon & 1 TNT included in an outpost chest.
    - Can be placed adjacent to claimed chunks (1 chunk buffer currently).
    - Cost change (see “TOOLSET PRICE CHANGE”).

    There would be a 24 hour cooldown for the attacking clan to place another outpost (and start a siege), as well as the attacked clan to be sieged themselves, to give both a chance to recoup. Warpoints would be reset between clans upon starting a siege.
    SIEGE MECHANICS - (Note: Casual would use the same mechanics, but start differently.)

    Cannon bases to get into them. Generally speaking, sieges follow the current mechanics with a few necessary changes.

    Change #1: TNT shot from cannons would explode instantly. Toggleable in the Cannon GUI.

    Change #2: Players cannot place blocks within the blast radius of a TNT for 1m 30s. Message in chat when players try to place blocks in said radius.

    Change #3: 10 second warmup to teleport home via “Travel Villager” for defenders. 5 second warmup to teleport home via “Travel Villager” for attackers.

    Change #4: Clans can’t invite players during a siege (both sides).
    RAID TOOLSET PRICE CHANGE

    Cannons: 25,000g TNT: 16,000g Outpost: 100,000g

    These changes would ONLY be for Hardcore servers. Since only 15 warpoints are required, a higher monetary cost seems fair. Casual servers would have a different toolset price, since they would be using this mechanic purely and not invasions.
    WARMUP/COOLDOWN

    After 25 wps, a 5 minute warmup would start where your warpoints are reset with the besieged clan. You and that clan’s warpoints are held in stasis, both clans prepare for the siege.

    After the siege, a 5 minute cooldown period would start where your warpoints remain in stasis with the invading clan, to give you a chance to block up your base and recover.
    SPECIAL NOTE:
    If you have trouble with spoilers/dislike this reading format, use the google document instead. I think it's nicer, personally:
    https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ZS5Ohi9HIIlkeBVOXp6B7wzmdEVPOuqFs6z-Y3m1jDg/edit?usp=sharing
     
    Posted Mar 30, 2020,
    Last edited Mar 31, 2020
    Cliffoff, Chromuh, Adrianna and 5 others like this.
  2. Not sure how I feel about this... The raid system right now is fairly good in terms of difficulty and manageability. Definitely right about how its going to change clans. Im leaning towards the no/abstain side for now.
     
    Posted Mar 31, 2020
    Fallen™ likes this.
  3. That's fair. However, to say that the raid system is in good terms right now is not really something up to debate. Polls upon polls have shown that players are not happy with the current raid system.

    The modified one proposed through this document would definitely make Clans a harder game to get rich in (AND STAY RICH), and that's where opinions will sway. However, if you read over the raid mechanics for "Sieges," those would be the mechanics for casual, except it would start automatically after 25 warpoints as it does currently.

    The way the invasion system here works is by allowing players to mine & place blocks, while preventing them from griefing bases. This means that repairing a base after an invasion will be much easier than it was in Beta. It does, however, mean that defending a raid would be much more difficult than it currently is. And to be honest, if you're playing a "HARDCORE" version of the game, shouldn't it be?

    Mathematically, players spend the following on average for a raid, and this is being generous/no cannons glitched:
    - 15k for cannon
    - 50k for TNT (x5)

    For a total of 65k and 25 warpoints, users are left feeling empty. Unless you get legendaries, it's rare that a clan succeeds in gaining back the wealth they spent raiding a base, and that's because of the cost to raid one. Removing that cost through invasions has proven in the past to be more enjoyable, if not a bit overpowered. By balancing, I've tried to bring it down to a tolerable level while maintaining that it is a hardcore version of the game.

    Let me know your thoughts.

    Regards,
    Isaac.
     
    OP OP
    OP OP Posted Mar 31, 2020,
    Last edited Mar 31, 2020
  4. Overall, I am a fan of the idea, the only thing I am concerned about is the mining blocks aspect. All though it would require 9 breaks to destroy a piece of stone brick, it seems a bit too over powered. For example: the entire clan except one could focus one area, and the other clan member could mine straight into the base while shifting, giving a free opportunity to the attacking clan to invade the defending clan with a very high success rate. Maybe I read the post wrong, but this was just the first thing that popped in my mind. Once again however, a new raiding system would be great, and the idea in general would likely be a welcome addition / change.
     
    Posted Mar 31, 2020
  5. To be honest, I don't like the current raiding method, and I'm not sure about your idea either. Placing a cooldown on placing blocks is kind of useless, because it takes away the whole idea about placing blocks. Making a raid cost 100k+ is dumb, quite frankly. Buying an outpost shouldn't be required. At all.

    Why change the amount of warpoints needed to raid? That doesn't really help any clans, it just makes it harder. Solos would be raided faster, and same with small clans. 15 warpoints could be earned in a day, solely due to throwing.

    I like your ideas about the outpost, but it shouldn't be required, and the price should be raised, from 100k to 150k.

    I also don't agree that inviting members should be prohibited on both sides of a raid. I think the side that has the lesser amount of members should be able to invite during a raid.

    Not sure what you mean with the warpoint warmup thing, but I can't see the need for a warmup system either.

    And I can't see your logic on the point where clans rarely gain back the 65k, because in a well-designed raid, that should be really easy. Finding 3 sets with power booster each already bypasses that amount. Raids as I see them aren't to gain gear, but to remove gear from opposing clans.
     
    Posted Mar 31, 2020
  6. Pretty good idea, however there are more important things to do in mineplex before this. For example, I would rather have a new game than a change to one.
     
    Posted Mar 31, 2020
  7. I do agree, but this thread is in the Clans forums section, so these are simply ideas for Clans specifically.
     
    Posted Mar 31, 2020
    Fallen™ and Adrianna like this.
  8. isaac youre bad
     
    Posted Apr 1, 2020
    Fallen™ and Adrianna like this.
  9. With this idea, the goal is to be overpowered by current standards. The beta system used a simple full block access system with 1 block breaking that allowed for clans to not only raid and destroy other clans, but grief their bases. This means that getting into a base would be 9 times harder comparitively to beta, but still significantly easier than currently. As in, I'd 100% expect people to be getting into bases during raids. The matter would be of defending vaults of gear rather than trying to defend an entire base as people do currently.

    A cooldown on placing blocks, if you read carefully, only comes into effect after 64 blocks. When in a raid, your primary objective should be to break blocks & get into chest rooms, not randomly spam blocks. After placing 64 blocks, a cooldown would prevent mass base griefing.

    As for a raid being 100k+, while it might not state it here the numbers are completely arbitrary and are up for discussion. You also aren't required to by an outpost to raid, you can get 25 warpoints and invade a user. You are required to buy an outpost to start a siege, which you can start optionally at 15 warpoints. And within the steep outpost price would be a cannon and TNT already included.

    You mentioned "Why chance the amount of warpoints needed to raid?" -> I didn't... Sieges would be a secondary way of raiding, and with a more expensive toolset as well as 5 minutes prep time and cooldown time + a 24 hour recuperation window players ought to be fine. The goal with this, while it might seem extreme, is to take Clans from the passive game it is currently and make it more on the ends of a constant battlefield, as it was meant to be. Players constantly fighting, a raid going on once or twice a day, etc.

    You mentioned increasing the outpost cost and making it non-mandatory, but for the purposes of this idea that doesn't make sense... so.

    "I also don't agree that inviting members should be prohibited on both sides of a raid. I think the side that has the lesser amount of members should be able to invite during a raid." -> CI has come to a consensus on this one. The reason for both sides not being able to invite during a raid is that it is your responsibility as a clan to make sure you are prepared before losing that 25th warpoint.

    "Not sure what you mean with the warpoint warmup thing, but I can't see the need for a warmup system either." With all due respect, if you don't understand it I'm not sure how you'd ascertain how much of a necessity it is or isn't.

    "And I can't see your logic on the point where clans rarely gain back the 65k, because in a well-designed raid, that should be really easy. Finding 3 sets with power booster each already bypasses that amount. Raids as I see them aren't to gain gear, but to remove gear from opposing clans." This is a flawed reasoning. Power-boosters do not sell in the shops back up to 65k unless you find a very very large amount of them. The goal is to make back the gold you spent. As for the goal being "removing gear from opposing clans," that's up for debate however it was never intended for raids to be to remove gear from opposing clans. It was to accumulate YOUR OWN wealth, a sentiment which proves that raids currently are very, very underwhelming.

    I did not have much time to write this, and so I haven't edited any of my responses. I apologize if something seems "abrasive," I dumped my thoughts onto the page w/out any editing.

    Regards,
    Isaac.
     
    OP OP
    OP OP Posted Apr 1, 2020
    kznny likes this.
  10. I just want to re-iterate that all values are tentative, and the merit of this idea should be based off of the physical idea. If you believe a value is flawed, mention it but don't let your opinion on the overall idea be dictated by poor, arbitrary values I picked for the sake of having a number down on the page.
     
    OP OP
    OP OP Posted Apr 1, 2020
    kznny likes this.
  11. I think the option to choose when to raid someone is kind of overpowered. Considering the fact that you can raid the clan when they are offline or have a lack in defenders, people can't play for 24 hours straight.

    The 'stasis' of the cooldown aspect won't stop other clans from killing you as well as the attacking clan. I believe they should have pvp protection during the cooldown period so they can actually rebuild themselves without getting further attacked. If the invader has any allies, the allies would most likely try to farm war points while they can so they can then raid the invaded clan themselves.

    Also, I think the cooldown for the "Travel Villager" at spawn for players from both clans should be removed during the warm-up and cool-down periods. As it isn't really necessary during those periods of time.

    Just some of my opinions that I think you should consider. This is a good idea though.
     
    Posted Apr 1, 2020
    kznny likes this.
  12. You can't, members have to be online as is stated in the spoiler (If it's not, I'm sorry, it is on the doc version)

    Not a bad idea, I will consider this.

    A very good point, thank you!
     
    OP OP
    OP OP Posted Apr 1, 2020
    kznny likes this.
  13. Ok, thanks for clarifying. I didn't understand that a siege was different from a raid, I thought it was replacing one. So are you saying that there should be 2 opportunities to an Invasion?

    And the warmup warning thing still doesn't make sense, even though I read it again. That section seems to be adding this feature to raiding or sieges? Not sure which one, you said they are 2 different things, but this is just confusing again... Unless you mean something completely different from what I assume a "warm-up" (you can look at the oxford definition) is, then I should be able to understand the necessity, to which I see none.

    The warm-up phase would just be the defending clan blocking up all of the chests, and believe me, 5 minutes is enough. Which I guess is why you included block-breaks, but then that really goes against the idea of profit because it would slow you down significantly.

    Another thing is that in almost all of the games similar to clans I have played, like HCF, the purpose of going raidable is not to grab all of the enemy's sets, but to destroy them and take the vals.
     
    Posted Apr 2, 2020
    Fallen™ likes this.

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